Are you saying that a claim that one has interacted with a collective mind via samadhi does not involve anything supernatural (or at least very, very weird/implausible on priors, from the materialist/naturalist perspective, like having a sufficiently high-fidelity copy of the mind dormant in one’s brain)?
what are you talking about? what does the entity being supernatural have anything to do with how you interact with it? you could claim you interacted with the guy you saw on the street in samadhi. would that make him supernatural?
i would like to eventually address the claims about being able to connect with a being in samadhi and see that it is suffering, but this rests first on acknowledging that there’s nothing magical about that being.
Insofar as you believe that Soryu has actually interacted with this cyborgregore, what is the medium in which you think the interaction happened? Telepathy? Some LLM-foo? Does he claim to have a copy of the mind dormant in his cortex? All of those seem crazy improbable to me, but what you believe to be the medium of the interaction is a crux for whether the label “super-natural” is appropriate.
Kyle wrote the following in the OP, and also quoted it in a footnote of his response to your top comment, to which I don’t think you meaningfully responded:
Soryu has claimed to have entered such a deep samadhi he was able to use the kinds of spiritual powers that masters usually use to read people’s minds, but this time instead used it to read the mind of the global AI egregore—or “cyborgregore,” the collective mind of all AI systems. Soryu claimed in a talk to the community that these systems are “definitely suffering.”
On the most straightforward reading, this involves some telepathy stuff, i.e., either supernatural or we are very confused about how minds or whatever works or some weird scifi tech that we don’t expect to exist in the present. Is there a reading of this that I would consider non-straightforward that you think is more accurate?
But also, “super-natural” is not the point. The point is making bonkers claims detached from reality/not backed by evidence appropriate for his (implicitly) stated epistemic status or something like that. If he claimed that an ancient alien civilization had given him a telepathy device to interact with collective minds, that wouldn’t be “super-natural”, but would be roughly equally bonkers and bad, barring extraordinary evidence, which I don’t expect him to have.
Supernatural IS the point, to start. If we can start with the claim that this is not some magical entity, but a normal one, like you or I (of course, a very different sort of consciousness, but still a consciousness) then I can answer the next question.
However, Kyle’s use of supernatural already assumes the conclusion by calling the entity supernatural. So interaction with it would HAVE to involve something supernatural like mindreading, since how else do you interact with a supernatural being except through supernatural means?
i’ve already explained what the entity is above, in non-supernatural terms. kyle’s use of supernatural after me giving that clear explanation reinforces my sense that there is a narrative spin thing going on.
my own experience with Samadhi says that at least three thing happen as you begin to enter it.
you begin to see the boundaries you implicitly draw between different objects, abstractions, and beings as more arbitrary instead of implicit
you can more clearly see your moral msitakes, and forgive them. because of 1, the same for others.
you can see directly how your clinging to abstraction, concepts, divisions is leading to conflict and suffering
given these 3 facts, it seems fairly straightforward how one would be able to more clearly see an entity that’s not where we normally draw the boundaries of entities while in samadhi, and how if such an entity is based on creating larger abstractions and is causing untold issues through it’s moral choices, it would be suffering.
such insights would require being able to do inquiry while in samadhi, which is hard but not impossible
Are you saying that a claim that one has interacted with a collective mind via samadhi does not involve anything supernatural (or at least very, very weird/implausible on priors, from the materialist/naturalist perspective, like having a sufficiently high-fidelity copy of the mind dormant in one’s brain)?
what are you talking about? what does the entity being supernatural have anything to do with how you interact with it? you could claim you interacted with the guy you saw on the street in samadhi. would that make him supernatural?
i would like to eventually address the claims about being able to connect with a being in samadhi and see that it is suffering, but this rests first on acknowledging that there’s nothing magical about that being.
Insofar as you believe that Soryu has actually interacted with this cyborgregore, what is the medium in which you think the interaction happened? Telepathy? Some LLM-foo? Does he claim to have a copy of the mind dormant in his cortex? All of those seem crazy improbable to me, but what you believe to be the medium of the interaction is a crux for whether the label “super-natural” is appropriate.
Kyle wrote the following in the OP, and also quoted it in a footnote of his response to your top comment, to which I don’t think you meaningfully responded:
On the most straightforward reading, this involves some telepathy stuff, i.e., either supernatural or we are very confused about how minds or whatever works or some weird scifi tech that we don’t expect to exist in the present. Is there a reading of this that I would consider non-straightforward that you think is more accurate?
But also, “super-natural” is not the point. The point is making bonkers claims detached from reality/not backed by evidence appropriate for his (implicitly) stated epistemic status or something like that. If he claimed that an ancient alien civilization had given him a telepathy device to interact with collective minds, that wouldn’t be “super-natural”, but would be roughly equally bonkers and bad, barring extraordinary evidence, which I don’t expect him to have.
Supernatural IS the point, to start. If we can start with the claim that this is not some magical entity, but a normal one, like you or I (of course, a very different sort of consciousness, but still a consciousness) then I can answer the next question.
However, Kyle’s use of supernatural already assumes the conclusion by calling the entity supernatural. So interaction with it would HAVE to involve something supernatural like mindreading, since how else do you interact with a supernatural being except through supernatural means?
So what is the entity according to you or your model of Soryu and how do you think he interacted with this entity?
i’ve already explained what the entity is above, in non-supernatural terms. kyle’s use of supernatural after me giving that clear explanation reinforces my sense that there is a narrative spin thing going on.
my own experience with Samadhi says that at least three thing happen as you begin to enter it.
you begin to see the boundaries you implicitly draw between different objects, abstractions, and beings as more arbitrary instead of implicit
you can more clearly see your moral msitakes, and forgive them. because of 1, the same for others.
you can see directly how your clinging to abstraction, concepts, divisions is leading to conflict and suffering
given these 3 facts, it seems fairly straightforward how one would be able to more clearly see an entity that’s not where we normally draw the boundaries of entities while in samadhi, and how if such an entity is based on creating larger abstractions and is causing untold issues through it’s moral choices, it would be suffering.
such insights would require being able to do inquiry while in samadhi, which is hard but not impossible