Note that most people either have or want children, which changes the calculus here: you need a larger place (often a whole house if you have many or want to live with extended family), and are more likely to benefit from paying a cleaner/domestic help (which is surprisingly expensive in the Bay and cannot be hired remotely). Furthermore, if you’re a meat-eater and want to buy ethically sourced meat or animal products, this increases the cost of food a lot.
I want to push back on the idea of needing a large[1] place if you have a family.
In the US a four person family will typically live in a 2,000-2,500 square foot place, but in Europe the same family will typically live in something like 1,000-1,400 square feet. In Asia it’s often less, and earlier in the US’s history it also was much less than what it is today.
If smaller sizes work for others across time and space I believe it is often sufficient for people in the US today.
Yeah that’s fair. But the lifestyle of ~$850 a month room in a group house isn’t that nice if you have many kids, and so it makes sense that people benefit from more money to afford a nicer place.
And like, sure, you can get by on less money than some people assume, but the original comment imo understates how much you and your family benefit from more money (e.g the use of “bewildered”).
As the father of 2 kids (a 5 y/o and 2 y/o) in Palo Alto, I can confirm that childcare is a lot. $2k per kid per month at our subsidized academic-affiliation rate. At $48k, it’s almost the entirety of my wife’s PhD salary. Fortunately, I have a well-paying job and we are not strapped for money.
We also got along with just an e-bike for 6 years, saving something like $15k per year in car insurance and gas (save for 9 months when we had the luxury of borrowing a car from family) [Incorrect, see below]. We got a car recently due to a longer commute, but even then, I still use the e-bike almost everyday because the car is not much faster and overlapping with exercise time is valuable (plus the 5 y/o told me he likes fresh air),
For clothes/toys/etc., we’ve used Facebook market place, “Buy Nothing” groups, and our neighbors to source pretty much everything. The best toys have just been cardboard, masking tape, and scissors, which are very cheap.
[Edit: As comments below point out, the figure for no-car savings was incorrect. It’s closer to $8k, taking into account gas, insurance, maintenance, and repairs. Apologies for the embellishment—I think it was from a combination of factors including (i) being proud of previously not owning a car, (ii) making enough not to track it closely, and (iii) deferring to my spouse for most of our household payments/financial management (which is not great on my part—she is busy and household management is a real burden).
To shore up my credibility on child care, I pulled our receipts, and we’re currently at $2,478 per month for the toddler, and $1,400 per month for the kindergartener’s after-school program (though cheaper options were available for the after-school program).]
It can vary enormously based on risk factors, choice of car, and quantity of coverage, but that does still sound extremely high to me. I think even if you’re a 25-yo male with pretty generous coverage above minimum liability, you probably won’t be paying more than ~$300/mo unless you have recent accidents on your record. Gas costs obviously scale ~linearly with miles driven, but even if your daily commute is a 40 mile round-trip, that’s still only like $200/mo. (There are people with longer commutes than that, but not ones that you can easily substitute for with an e-bike; even 20 miles each way seems like a stretch.)
Thank you both for calling this out, because I was clearly incorrect. I was trying to recall my wife’s initial calculation, which I believe included maintenance, insurance, gas, and repairs.
I think this is one of those things where I was so proud of not owning a car that the amount saved morphed from $8k to $10k to $15k in the retelling. I need to stop doing that.
Also, I’m feeling some whiplash reading my reply because I totally sound like an LLM when called out for a mistake. Maybe similar neural pathways for embellishment were firing, haha.
Note that most people either have or want children, which changes the calculus here: you need a larger place (often a whole house if you have many or want to live with extended family), and are more likely to benefit from paying a cleaner/domestic help (which is surprisingly expensive in the Bay and cannot be hired remotely). Furthermore, if you’re a meat-eater and want to buy ethically sourced meat or animal products, this increases the cost of food a lot.
I want to push back on the idea of needing a large[1] place if you have a family.
In the US a four person family will typically live in a 2,000-2,500 square foot place, but in Europe the same family will typically live in something like 1,000-1,400 square feet. In Asia it’s often less, and earlier in the US’s history it also was much less than what it is today.
If smaller sizes work for others across time and space I believe it is often sufficient for people in the US today.
Well, you just said “larger”.
Yeah that’s fair. But the lifestyle of ~$850 a month room in a group house isn’t that nice if you have many kids, and so it makes sense that people benefit from more money to afford a nicer place.
And like, sure, you can get by on less money than some people assume, but the original comment imo understates how much you and your family benefit from more money (e.g the use of “bewildered”).
As the father of 2 kids (a 5 y/o and 2 y/o) in Palo Alto, I can confirm that childcare is a lot. $2k per kid per month at our subsidized academic-affiliation rate. At $48k, it’s almost the entirety of my wife’s PhD salary. Fortunately, I have a well-paying job and we are not strapped for money.
We also got along with just an e-bike for 6 years, saving something like $15k per year in car insurance and gas (save for 9 months when we had the luxury of borrowing a car from family) [Incorrect, see below]. We got a car recently due to a longer commute, but even then, I still use the e-bike almost everyday because the car is not much faster and overlapping with exercise time is valuable (plus the 5 y/o told me he likes fresh air),
For clothes/toys/etc., we’ve used Facebook market place, “Buy Nothing” groups, and our neighbors to source pretty much everything. The best toys have just been cardboard, masking tape, and scissors, which are very cheap.
[Edit: As comments below point out, the figure for no-car savings was incorrect. It’s closer to $8k, taking into account gas, insurance, maintenance, and repairs. Apologies for the embellishment—I think it was from a combination of factors including (i) being proud of previously not owning a car, (ii) making enough not to track it closely, and (iii) deferring to my spouse for most of our household payments/financial management (which is not great on my part—she is busy and household management is a real burden).
To shore up my credibility on child care, I pulled our receipts, and we’re currently at $2,478 per month for the toddler, and $1,400 per month for the kindergartener’s after-school program (though cheaper options were available for the after-school program).]
Is $15k a year typical for car insurance? In the UK it’s a few hundred dollars a year at most unless you’re a very young or very risky driver.
It can vary enormously based on risk factors, choice of car, and quantity of coverage, but that does still sound extremely high to me. I think even if you’re a 25-yo male with pretty generous coverage above minimum liability, you probably won’t be paying more than ~$300/mo unless you have recent accidents on your record. Gas costs obviously scale ~linearly with miles driven, but even if your daily commute is a 40 mile round-trip, that’s still only like $200/mo. (There are people with longer commutes than that, but not ones that you can easily substitute for with an e-bike; even 20 miles each way seems like a stretch.)
Thank you both for calling this out, because I was clearly incorrect. I was trying to recall my wife’s initial calculation, which I believe included maintenance, insurance, gas, and repairs.
I think this is one of those things where I was so proud of not owning a car that the amount saved morphed from $8k to $10k to $15k in the retelling. I need to stop doing that.
Also, I’m feeling some whiplash reading my reply because I totally sound like an LLM when called out for a mistake. Maybe similar neural pathways for embellishment were firing, haha.
What group of people is this claim supposed to refer to, LessWrong readers? The world population?
I was thinking about US adults, but I’d guess it applies to LW readers and world adult population also.
69% of US adults say they have children, 15% do not but still want to (source)