He also has an anecdote of someone else he considers to be an arhat saying “This one is not suffering!” in response to a question at a retreat.
Are you thinking of the mention on this page? Given the overall context, it seems like Ingram is expressing skepticism of that comment.
What a freakish paradox that the meditative techniques and technologies that I consider among the most powerful and direct ever developed should come from a tradition whose models of awakening contain some of the worst myths of them all. I have sat with numerous arahants who were monks or former monks who just couldn’t seem to overcome their indoctrination and so when giving dharma talks would occasionally mix in the junk with the gold when it was obvious they knew better from their own direct experience.
Here’s an example from one of my favorite, realized, arahant teachers who taught me a ton and to whom I am extremely grateful. Someone asked him, “Are you suffering?”
He answered, referring to himself, “This [name withheld] is not suffering!”
Except that I was aware of the details of this teacher’s life, and this teacher’s life involved all sorts of real, ordinary, straightforward misery and problems, the sort of suffering that is listed by the Buddha as being an integral part of the suffering of having been born into this life.
I think I was remembering Ingram sharing this same story in a different context (maybe a talk he gave or a group discussion), but the context here is interesting; thanks for sharing!
I’m happy to offer my take on what he’s saying here, but I will also note that I’m slightly more uncertain about what Ingram’s views/claims are after reading this.
First, I notice that the context for the quote is him critiquing the traditional account of the four-path model for implying arhats must have attained some kind of emotional perfection. (This is what he’s talking about when he says “a tradition whose models of awakening contain some of the worst myths.”)
In terms of the mention of this teacher and their experience, I mostly think that Ingram is being slightly sloppy with the use of the word “suffering,” in the manner against which I argue in this post. In the context of the criticism of emotional range models, he seems to be pointing out merely that this teacher, who he does claim is an arhat (as quoted), is still capable of experiencing some negative emotions. Another clue can be found earlier in the linked chapter:
It is important to note that arahants who are said to have eliminated “conceit” (in limited emotional range terms) can appear to us as arrogant and conceited, as well as restless or worried, etc. That there is no fundamental suffering in them while this is occurring is an utterly separate issue. That said, conceit in the conventional sense and the rest of life can cause all sorts of conventional suffering for arahants, just as it can for everyone else.
It’s pretty clear that Ingram is making a distinction between what he’s calling “fundamental suffering” and “conventional suffering,” which I believe corresponds neatly with what I’m simply calling “suffering” and “pain,” respectively. If I were to clarify with Ingram personally, I could simply use Buddhist terms like vedana (hedonic tone/affect) and tanha (craving/aversion, the cause of suffering). I believe he’s making the claim that negative/unpleasant vedana can still arise for arhats, but they are free of tanha, free of dukkha. To my understanding, this is not in conflict with the traditional account/models (the Buddha was said to have chronic back pain, iirc, but no one claims he suffered for it). Neither does it conflict with my own experience: without tanha, pain/displeasure (physical and emotional) still happens sometimes, just without any associated suffering.
Ingram has also told a story about getting kidney stones after awakening. I would certainly believe that was quite a painful experience, but I would be very surprised if Daniel (claiming arhatship at that time) would say that tanha arose and caused dukkha. I don’t think one can reasonably claim arhatship is not identical with a complete elimination of tanha and a complete liberation from dukkha, but I don’t think that’s what he actually thinks/claims, either. I think his main critique of the traditional four-path model has to do with the ‘emotional perfection’ stuff, e.g. the idea of arhats supposedly not being able to be sexually aroused.
Are you thinking of the mention on this page? Given the overall context, it seems like Ingram is expressing skepticism of that comment.
I think I was remembering Ingram sharing this same story in a different context (maybe a talk he gave or a group discussion), but the context here is interesting; thanks for sharing!
I’m happy to offer my take on what he’s saying here, but I will also note that I’m slightly more uncertain about what Ingram’s views/claims are after reading this.
First, I notice that the context for the quote is him critiquing the traditional account of the four-path model for implying arhats must have attained some kind of emotional perfection. (This is what he’s talking about when he says “a tradition whose models of awakening contain some of the worst myths.”)
In terms of the mention of this teacher and their experience, I mostly think that Ingram is being slightly sloppy with the use of the word “suffering,” in the manner against which I argue in this post. In the context of the criticism of emotional range models, he seems to be pointing out merely that this teacher, who he does claim is an arhat (as quoted), is still capable of experiencing some negative emotions. Another clue can be found earlier in the linked chapter:
It’s pretty clear that Ingram is making a distinction between what he’s calling “fundamental suffering” and “conventional suffering,” which I believe corresponds neatly with what I’m simply calling “suffering” and “pain,” respectively. If I were to clarify with Ingram personally, I could simply use Buddhist terms like vedana (hedonic tone/affect) and tanha (craving/aversion, the cause of suffering). I believe he’s making the claim that negative/unpleasant vedana can still arise for arhats, but they are free of tanha, free of dukkha. To my understanding, this is not in conflict with the traditional account/models (the Buddha was said to have chronic back pain, iirc, but no one claims he suffered for it). Neither does it conflict with my own experience: without tanha, pain/displeasure (physical and emotional) still happens sometimes, just without any associated suffering.
Ingram has also told a story about getting kidney stones after awakening. I would certainly believe that was quite a painful experience, but I would be very surprised if Daniel (claiming arhatship at that time) would say that tanha arose and caused dukkha. I don’t think one can reasonably claim arhatship is not identical with a complete elimination of tanha and a complete liberation from dukkha, but I don’t think that’s what he actually thinks/claims, either. I think his main critique of the traditional four-path model has to do with the ‘emotional perfection’ stuff, e.g. the idea of arhats supposedly not being able to be sexually aroused.