I tried it for a few weeks and didn’t notice any major difference. I think I’ll try again on this recommendation. Perhaps my endogenous melatonin is already sufficient, or I was a lazy self-monitor.
I would summarize:
(1) In your personal experience, 1.5mg of melatonin 30 min before sleeping makes you feel 8-hours rested after 7-hours of sleep (but 9mg is harmful)
(2) that dosage has negligible cost
That’s all you really needed to say.
It’s jarring to me that you so meticulously analyze the cost of dosing with melatonin; once I know a cost is below some low threshold, I prefer not to think about it at all. I’d rather you took the same care into performing some objective tests of mental capability on varying amounts of sleep, so that it really means something when you say you gain an hour of wakefulness. Of course, I’d want this blinded as well, but I doubt you have convincing placebo pills available; besides, I don’t mind taking something in hope of accruing some real and placebo benefits.
If your experience is typical, then the only reason people shouldn’t be dosing melatonin is if there’s some long-term health detriment (I don’t have any mechanism in mind; it seems unlikely).
I’ve long had trouble going to sleep, and it’s not an issue of refusing to go to bed, but rather, that I can’t seem to just fall asleep like everyone else. My mind just won’t shut down. OTC sleeping pills don’t work on me: all they do is make me really drowsy but just as unable to fall asleep, which is a sucky feeling.
Recently, I started going on a prescription medication that works like a charm, in that predictably makes me sleepy, and actually fall asleep, and, on occasion, lets me wake up refreshed in the morning. However, it’s relatively expensive, even with insurance.
Based on this TL post, I’m going to try melatonin, and if it does the same thing in terms of making me fall asleep, that alone would be worth it.
Unfortunately, it turns out it’s never been able to make me go to sleep, anywhere near as well as the prescription. Though it does make me wake up earlier (restfully).
(Sorry for the delay, I guess I just haven’t been logging in as much, lately!)
BTW, I did wind up measuring sleep over 6 months of on/off melatonin, so I now have more than intuition for the 1-hour claim (which turns out to be more like 50 minutes): http://www.gwern.net/Zeo#melatonin-analysis
My less meticulous conclusion is that melatonin makes me wake earlier and easier with light (maybe in general, but I don’t wake by alarm). I haven’t bothered to check whether that means I actually slept better (in terms of improving my performance/mood going forward), but I consider it a good sign.
About 2 in every 7 days—when I feel like my past night’s misadventures might make it hard for me to sleep and wake properly. So no, not really. If I lived alone, I’d probably be more regimented and go for 7⁄7 with some tiny dose (because stable habits that can be tweaked gradually are reassuring).
Based on my experience, I’d recommend it if you want to wake up “naturally” with the light but your recent sleep history (e.g. jet lag) wouldn’t permit that. Otherwise, I’ve been too sloppy to know precisely what it does for me (I can feel a large dose, such that I’d guarantee it’s not only placebo).
It’s jarring to me that you so meticulously analyze the cost of dosing with melatonin; once I know a cost is below some low threshold, I prefer not to think about it at all.
That’s great for you—if you feel convinced, you save all the time I spent researching & writing this. But how do you know the cost is below that threshold? Because I did so meticulously analyze it.
More to the point, I don’t analyze everything like this. Once I calculated the cost per night was below 10 cents and the benefit above half an hour, my mind was made up. Everything after that was for a hopefully educational ‘case study’ for readers, and to make the conclusion as strong as possible.
I’d rather you took the same care into performing some objective tests of mental capability on varying amounts of sleep, so that it really means something when you say you gain an hour of wakefulness. Of course, I’d want this blinded as well, but I doubt you have convincing placebo pills available; besides, I don’t mind taking something in hope of accruing some real and placebo benefits.
I do have visually convincing placebos (some vitamin B supplements), but part of the problem is there’s no way I can fool myself—I know what the onset feels like with and without melatonin.
Although it wouldn’t be a bad idea to take some measurements on the Dual N-back test; I would like to know the saving more precisely than ‘more than half and hour and less than 2’. :)
I tried it for a few weeks and didn’t notice any major difference. I think I’ll try again on this recommendation. Perhaps my endogenous melatonin is already sufficient, or I was a lazy self-monitor.
I would summarize:
(1) In your personal experience, 1.5mg of melatonin 30 min before sleeping makes you feel 8-hours rested after 7-hours of sleep (but 9mg is harmful)
(2) that dosage has negligible cost
That’s all you really needed to say.
It’s jarring to me that you so meticulously analyze the cost of dosing with melatonin; once I know a cost is below some low threshold, I prefer not to think about it at all. I’d rather you took the same care into performing some objective tests of mental capability on varying amounts of sleep, so that it really means something when you say you gain an hour of wakefulness. Of course, I’d want this blinded as well, but I doubt you have convincing placebo pills available; besides, I don’t mind taking something in hope of accruing some real and placebo benefits.
If your experience is typical, then the only reason people shouldn’t be dosing melatonin is if there’s some long-term health detriment (I don’t have any mechanism in mind; it seems unlikely).
For me, the ability to force myself to go to bed is by far the most important claim made in this post.
I’ve long had trouble going to sleep, and it’s not an issue of refusing to go to bed, but rather, that I can’t seem to just fall asleep like everyone else. My mind just won’t shut down. OTC sleeping pills don’t work on me: all they do is make me really drowsy but just as unable to fall asleep, which is a sucky feeling.
Recently, I started going on a prescription medication that works like a charm, in that predictably makes me sleepy, and actually fall asleep, and, on occasion, lets me wake up refreshed in the morning. However, it’s relatively expensive, even with insurance.
Based on this TL post, I’m going to try melatonin, and if it does the same thing in terms of making me fall asleep, that alone would be worth it.
If you don’t mind, what’s the prescription medication?
Seroquel aka Quetiapine (which unfortunately is prescribed for a lot of things other than insomnia, but only serves to knock me out in about an hour).
And?
Unfortunately, it turns out it’s never been able to make me go to sleep, anywhere near as well as the prescription. Though it does make me wake up earlier (restfully).
(Sorry for the delay, I guess I just haven’t been logging in as much, lately!)
So you are still using it?
Yes, though I hope to one day not need it. I’m trying to use smaller amounts as time goes by.
Welcome back! I missed you.
Thanks! It’s good to feel appreciated!
I’ve also moved to the SF Bay area, capital of LW.
BTW, I did wind up measuring sleep over 6 months of on/off melatonin, so I now have more than intuition for the 1-hour claim (which turns out to be more like 50 minutes): http://www.gwern.net/Zeo#melatonin-analysis
Very impressive followup. I’ve skimmed that.
My less meticulous conclusion is that melatonin makes me wake earlier and easier with light (maybe in general, but I don’t wake by alarm). I haven’t bothered to check whether that means I actually slept better (in terms of improving my performance/mood going forward), but I consider it a good sign.
So you are still using it?
About 2 in every 7 days—when I feel like my past night’s misadventures might make it hard for me to sleep and wake properly. So no, not really. If I lived alone, I’d probably be more regimented and go for 7⁄7 with some tiny dose (because stable habits that can be tweaked gradually are reassuring).
Based on my experience, I’d recommend it if you want to wake up “naturally” with the light but your recent sleep history (e.g. jet lag) wouldn’t permit that. Otherwise, I’ve been too sloppy to know precisely what it does for me (I can feel a large dose, such that I’d guarantee it’s not only placebo).
That’s great for you—if you feel convinced, you save all the time I spent researching & writing this. But how do you know the cost is below that threshold? Because I did so meticulously analyze it.
More to the point, I don’t analyze everything like this. Once I calculated the cost per night was below 10 cents and the benefit above half an hour, my mind was made up. Everything after that was for a hopefully educational ‘case study’ for readers, and to make the conclusion as strong as possible.
I do have visually convincing placebos (some vitamin B supplements), but part of the problem is there’s no way I can fool myself—I know what the onset feels like with and without melatonin.
Although it wouldn’t be a bad idea to take some measurements on the Dual N-back test; I would like to know the saving more precisely than ‘more than half and hour and less than 2’. :)