A problem is that any attempt to improve attractiveness will lead some people to declare that you are evil or otherwise defective. Its not just PUA stuff, this is far more general: if a guy lifts, that makes him a ‘dickhead’ according to members of my peer group.
#NotAllPeerGroups.
Seriously, though, I feel for you being in a peer group which could be better at encouraging fellow men while still respecting women, rather than hitting some failure mode because of signaling. I know you wrote only some* people will declare you evil or otherwise defective, but I don’t see a reason not to leave them behind, all else equal. John Salvatier is a man I’m acquainted with, a member of this peer group who writes about improving attractiveness (not just sexual attractiveness, but general attractiveness based on fashion. He doesn’t seem the sort who anyone I know accuses of being evil or otherwise defective. He hangs out on r/malefashionadvice, which seems to have an air of being more about becoming “a gentleman” rather than a “pick-up artist”. Whether it’s women or other men who are calling each other ‘dickheads’, I think we can find better peer groups which engender habits of expressing a desire for self-improvement better, and peer groups which won’t punish individuals when desires are expressed.
In fact, its possible that LW rationality is training people to have bad social skills. “How to change your mind” might just be how to look like a weak-willed person who won’t stick to their guns, or if you change your mind about politics, it makes you a traitor.
I agree that’s very possible. It’s an unfortunate trade-off for bad credence calibration. I’m not sure it’s a trade-off worth undoing, though.
*I’m inferring from your comment you’re a man, but pardon me if I’m assuming too much.
I don’t necessarily think that social confidence and credence should be conflated to the extent that a few replies in this thread of posts have conflated them by use of the word “confidence” to refer to both concepts. It is possible to have confident body language, be an active participant in conversations, and even call others out on their overconfidence while still being a well-calibrated individual.
I think the underlying reason for “improving attractiveness is evil” is largely a mixture of egalitarianism and a disconnect from reality. The idea is:
‘I want to believe that everyone is attractive, therefore anyone who tries to become more attractive is evil. Do they think they’re better than us?’
Now, admittedly, if attractiveness is a purely positional good, then this would make sense. But I don’t think this is the case.
Similarly, I’ve heard the idea that universities giving female students advice on personal safety is evil, because in a perfect world no-one would commit violent crime. The fact that we don’t live in a perfect world does not seem to have occurred to them.
I don’t see a reason not to leave them behind, all else equal.
To a large extent I already have, moving away from them a few years ago. Not that I don’t enjoy their company, but they are rather entropic people.
A second possibility is simply adopting a strong mental attitude of independence. Since reading about cogsci and how the mind automatically accepts everything it hears without making a concious effort to question its veracity, I’ve begun consciously marking opinions I hear as “someone else’s opinion”.
I think we can find better peer groups which engender habits of expressing a desire for self-improvement better, and peer groups which won’t punish individuals when desires are expressed.
Well, this is strongly characteristic of LW. I have attended a meetup where we did assertiveness training, which I would think is far more helpful than advice about ‘just be yourself’.
I wonder what other ways there are to find more positive peer groups? Offline, I have found martial arts people (or, other sports people) are a good start. Online, I wonder if other groups similar to LW have organised meatspace meetups—I used to lurk around many H+ organisations, but not for a while.
I looked at r/malefashionadvice, and it seems a little too ‘what is in this season’. I’d rather have clothes that are timeless, rather then having to reappraise my wardrobe every year. Still, I think this:
becoming “a gentleman” rather than a “pick-up artist”
Seems a good idea.
It’s an unfortunate trade-off for bad credence calibration. I’m not sure it’s a trade-off worth undoing, though.
People have raised the possibility of doublethink wrt this sort of thing—simultaneously believing something with absolute certainty for the sake of social confidence or psychosomatic effects, while also having accurate, calibrated beliefs where necessary. I wonder if anyone has actually got that to work.
becoming “a gentleman” rather than a “pick-up artist”
Seems a good idea.
Be careful. A lot of common missteps in personal presentation, especially in geek communities, come from failed attempts to look gentlemanly; the “m’lady” stereotype of Reddit fame is an extreme example, of course, but the rabbit hole goes a lot deeper. I’m only casually familiar with r/malefashionadvice, but I recall its house style being described somewhere as “dressing like a grownup”, which seems like a better objective to start with.
Apparently the problem is that the “m’lady” stereotype is wearing a fedora with a t-shirt, is overweight and is just essentially low-status. A gentleman wearing a suit with some confidence is a different matter.
Now I want to know how to dress as a badass gentleman...
Sure, that’s the stereotype. But the problem is actually that the signaling model is wrong. Our stereotype wants to associate himself with some concept, so he throws on an item that he associates with that concept: a pinstripe fedora if he likes Thirties mobsters, let’s say, or a leather trench if he’s seen The Matrix one too many times. It’s out of context, it clashes, and the outfit ends up looking worse than the sum of its parts (and being overweight and poorly groomed never helps).
The principle is easy to state: clothes should work in context, including the context of your body. But the point is that those cues are not obvious. There’s a whole visual language that needs to be learned before you can reliably present yourself as e.g. gentlemanly, and keeping a laser focus on whatever stereotype you feel like projecting actually isn’t the most efficient way to get there. Better to start with the basics.
I think how to “dress for success” differs radically between different subcultures. In some you want to look like you stepped out of a fashion ad, in others it’s all about worn jeans and tshirts, in yet others fake fur and el-wire rule...
#NotAllPeerGroups.
Seriously, though, I feel for you being in a peer group which could be better at encouraging fellow men while still respecting women, rather than hitting some failure mode because of signaling. I know you wrote only some* people will declare you evil or otherwise defective, but I don’t see a reason not to leave them behind, all else equal. John Salvatier is a man I’m acquainted with, a member of this peer group who writes about improving attractiveness (not just sexual attractiveness, but general attractiveness based on fashion. He doesn’t seem the sort who anyone I know accuses of being evil or otherwise defective. He hangs out on r/malefashionadvice, which seems to have an air of being more about becoming “a gentleman” rather than a “pick-up artist”. Whether it’s women or other men who are calling each other ‘dickheads’, I think we can find better peer groups which engender habits of expressing a desire for self-improvement better, and peer groups which won’t punish individuals when desires are expressed.
I agree that’s very possible. It’s an unfortunate trade-off for bad credence calibration. I’m not sure it’s a trade-off worth undoing, though.
*I’m inferring from your comment you’re a man, but pardon me if I’m assuming too much.
I don’t necessarily think that social confidence and credence should be conflated to the extent that a few replies in this thread of posts have conflated them by use of the word “confidence” to refer to both concepts. It is possible to have confident body language, be an active participant in conversations, and even call others out on their overconfidence while still being a well-calibrated individual.
I think the underlying reason for “improving attractiveness is evil” is largely a mixture of egalitarianism and a disconnect from reality. The idea is:
‘I want to believe that everyone is attractive, therefore anyone who tries to become more attractive is evil. Do they think they’re better than us?’
Now, admittedly, if attractiveness is a purely positional good, then this would make sense. But I don’t think this is the case.
Similarly, I’ve heard the idea that universities giving female students advice on personal safety is evil, because in a perfect world no-one would commit violent crime. The fact that we don’t live in a perfect world does not seem to have occurred to them.
To a large extent I already have, moving away from them a few years ago. Not that I don’t enjoy their company, but they are rather entropic people.
A second possibility is simply adopting a strong mental attitude of independence. Since reading about cogsci and how the mind automatically accepts everything it hears without making a concious effort to question its veracity, I’ve begun consciously marking opinions I hear as “someone else’s opinion”.
Well, this is strongly characteristic of LW. I have attended a meetup where we did assertiveness training, which I would think is far more helpful than advice about ‘just be yourself’.
I wonder what other ways there are to find more positive peer groups? Offline, I have found martial arts people (or, other sports people) are a good start. Online, I wonder if other groups similar to LW have organised meatspace meetups—I used to lurk around many H+ organisations, but not for a while.
I looked at r/malefashionadvice, and it seems a little too ‘what is in this season’. I’d rather have clothes that are timeless, rather then having to reappraise my wardrobe every year. Still, I think this:
Seems a good idea.
People have raised the possibility of doublethink wrt this sort of thing—simultaneously believing something with absolute certainty for the sake of social confidence or psychosomatic effects, while also having accurate, calibrated beliefs where necessary. I wonder if anyone has actually got that to work.
Be careful. A lot of common missteps in personal presentation, especially in geek communities, come from failed attempts to look gentlemanly; the “m’lady” stereotype of Reddit fame is an extreme example, of course, but the rabbit hole goes a lot deeper. I’m only casually familiar with r/malefashionadvice, but I recall its house style being described somewhere as “dressing like a grownup”, which seems like a better objective to start with.
(Failed attempts to look badass are even worse.)
Apparently the problem is that the “m’lady” stereotype is wearing a fedora with a t-shirt, is overweight and is just essentially low-status. A gentleman wearing a suit with some confidence is a different matter.
Now I want to know how to dress as a badass gentleman...
Sure, that’s the stereotype. But the problem is actually that the signaling model is wrong. Our stereotype wants to associate himself with some concept, so he throws on an item that he associates with that concept: a pinstripe fedora if he likes Thirties mobsters, let’s say, or a leather trench if he’s seen The Matrix one too many times. It’s out of context, it clashes, and the outfit ends up looking worse than the sum of its parts (and being overweight and poorly groomed never helps).
The principle is easy to state: clothes should work in context, including the context of your body. But the point is that those cues are not obvious. There’s a whole visual language that needs to be learned before you can reliably present yourself as e.g. gentlemanly, and keeping a laser focus on whatever stereotype you feel like projecting actually isn’t the most efficient way to get there. Better to start with the basics.
I think how to “dress for success” differs radically between different subcultures. In some you want to look like you stepped out of a fashion ad, in others it’s all about worn jeans and tshirts, in yet others fake fur and el-wire rule...
It’s also mugging the competition :-D