The second and third articles seems more to the point, and Mike Solana is right. But the “intellectuals” with the graphs are overlooking many important things. I also doubt the legitimacy of a lot of this data, how exactly is food quality going up? There’s a clear trend of nutritional decline, added sugar and chemicals, and hyper-processed foods.
I know that life has generally gotten worse since 15 years ago, but I need a stronger argument to show that this is not just a local trend but a global one. For the same reason that “This year is colder than last year, therefore there is no global warming” wouldn’t be a valid argument.
I take issue with how so-called knowledgable people fixate on surface-level metrics and act like other aspects of life do not exist. Money is not a good metric for well-being, and while economics is relevant, psychology is much more so. I’m glad that Zvi at least talks about the cost of watching children like hawks, but that’s merely one important pattern. He refers to it multiple times because he rightly regards it as important, but he barely manages to see the shadow of the cluster to which it belongs, and he fails to notice that his modern values helped in creating this cluster.
I’d have brought up the difference between manifacturing and service if the article hadn’t. The change from “Buy something and you own it and it will work for 50 years” to “Buy a mere license to something which needs repairs after 2 years” means that things may appear cheaper despite being more expensive over time. But even if that is taken into account, people become miserable when you take away control and agency from them, and these psychological aspects account for a lot of the felt decline. It’s much easier to cope with failure when it’s because of ourselves or because of life, than when it feels like other peoples tyranny is to blame.
I have to disagree with the argument “We find the compromises of the past simply unacceptable”. The “we” refered to here are those who prefer the present over the past, and I’m arguing that things are getting worse because I find the past to be better in many aspects. The author then claims that anyone who prefers the present is “wise”, which is ridiculus. As if a societal collapse is worth a reduction in mean words. He doesn’t seem to realize it, but many of the problems he later identifies (like bureaucracy and overregulation) are replacements to traditional ways of doing things.
Zvi is in-between the position that I disagree with and the position I agree with. He knows that some things “adds to measured GDP but makes life harder” and that “People are very good at noticing when things suck. Not as good at figuring out why”. This is the tension between the intellectuals who only see the surface, and the people living in reality who lack the education to explain why they’re miserable. Many of my objections to his post point in the same direction as his own arguments, i.e. “Survival requires jumping through costly hoops not in the statistics.” Exactly, the ivory tower is too disconnected to the averge person. The objective metrics does injustice to the subjective life. The prefrontal cortex tyrannizes the older brain circuits. If Zvi takes his ideas further, I think he will converge towards my current position.
The customer’s benefit comes in the form of increased quality of life. The business’s benefit comes in the form of profit
This duality is excellent. It mirrors the trade-off between “Work to get resources but lack the time to play” and “Have the time to play but lack the resources”. A fundamental trade-off between utility and qualia. But the example misses something important, for well-being requires power (agency and freedom), and being exploited by the system leads to a reduction in these rather than an increase. The traps here feels like hedonism, or the “increased quality of life” being short-term rather than long term. You felt this too, since you mentioned junk food and gambling.
Finally, most of those who are miserable about the economy today tells me that they commute, work, eat, shower and sleep. They do not have time and energy for anything else. So this is an excellent metric! Has hours worked increased? Is free time left after necessary daily chores decreasing? If they’re not, then it must be that life has gotten worse psychologically, and that the decrease in mental energy, rather than time, makes life feel as if it’s nothing but a struggle. 4 hours of free time which would be spent socializing in the past might have turned into 4 hours of free time spend ruminating or on unfulfilling escapism.
Agreed that we have serious problems today. But I don’t think they are mostly economic in nature. The main new economic problem is that life is now full of traps that didn’t used to exist. High-quality nutritious food is much cheaper than in the 1950s, but junk food is even cheaper and tastes delicious. You can do sports gambling on your phone. You can doomscroll TikTok on your phone. This is a “skill issue”, but many people get hooked on junk food or TikTok as children and children are going to be unskilled. If you avoid the traps, things have never been better (from a purely economic perspective).
I think our main problems are social, cultural, and [redacted]. Unfortunately, a full discussion of them would require touching on some forbidden topics.
They both are and aren’t. Modern molochian problems stem from actions which maximize income, and with the death of god, materialism is winning against traditional morality. We don’t need more money in order to be happier, but on the other hand, living paycheck to paycheck is really hard on the psyche, and it often feels like everyone is out to bleed you dry.
I also think we have less alternatives to these traps than we used to. There’s less communities and family gatherings, less nature to walk in, less social activities around town. Many improvements require collective effort rather than individual effort. I’m immune to these traps, so I don’t think they’re solely to blame for the worsening conditions.
You don’t think that the million laws, regulations and paperwork requirements makes it more difficult than in the past to invent new things or start a business?
I agree about [redacted]. If you’re refering to ideas which aren’t just taboo in our current era, but in most or all eras, feel free to DM more about them. I like hearing such takes, but they’re anti-memetic so all search engines work against me.
Long response—feel free to skim.
The second and third articles seems more to the point, and Mike Solana is right. But the “intellectuals” with the graphs are overlooking many important things. I also doubt the legitimacy of a lot of this data, how exactly is food quality going up? There’s a clear trend of nutritional decline, added sugar and chemicals, and hyper-processed foods.
I know that life has generally gotten worse since 15 years ago, but I need a stronger argument to show that this is not just a local trend but a global one. For the same reason that “This year is colder than last year, therefore there is no global warming” wouldn’t be a valid argument.
I take issue with how so-called knowledgable people fixate on surface-level metrics and act like other aspects of life do not exist. Money is not a good metric for well-being, and while economics is relevant, psychology is much more so.
I’m glad that Zvi at least talks about the cost of watching children like hawks, but that’s merely one important pattern. He refers to it multiple times because he rightly regards it as important, but he barely manages to see the shadow of the cluster to which it belongs, and he fails to notice that his modern values helped in creating this cluster.
I’d have brought up the difference between manifacturing and service if the article hadn’t. The change from “Buy something and you own it and it will work for 50 years” to “Buy a mere license to something which needs repairs after 2 years” means that things may appear cheaper despite being more expensive over time. But even if that is taken into account, people become miserable when you take away control and agency from them, and these psychological aspects account for a lot of the felt decline. It’s much easier to cope with failure when it’s because of ourselves or because of life, than when it feels like other peoples tyranny is to blame.
I have to disagree with the argument “We find the compromises of the past simply unacceptable”. The “we” refered to here are those who prefer the present over the past, and I’m arguing that things are getting worse because I find the past to be better in many aspects. The author then claims that anyone who prefers the present is “wise”, which is ridiculus. As if a societal collapse is worth a reduction in mean words. He doesn’t seem to realize it, but many of the problems he later identifies (like bureaucracy and overregulation) are replacements to traditional ways of doing things.
Zvi is in-between the position that I disagree with and the position I agree with. He knows that some things “adds to measured GDP but makes life harder” and that “People are very good at noticing when things suck. Not as good at figuring out why”. This is the tension between the intellectuals who only see the surface, and the people living in reality who lack the education to explain why they’re miserable. Many of my objections to his post point in the same direction as his own arguments, i.e. “Survival requires jumping through costly hoops not in the statistics.” Exactly, the ivory tower is too disconnected to the averge person. The objective metrics does injustice to the subjective life. The prefrontal cortex tyrannizes the older brain circuits. If Zvi takes his ideas further, I think he will converge towards my current position.
This duality is excellent. It mirrors the trade-off between “Work to get resources but lack the time to play” and “Have the time to play but lack the resources”. A fundamental trade-off between utility and qualia. But the example misses something important, for well-being requires power (agency and freedom), and being exploited by the system leads to a reduction in these rather than an increase. The traps here feels like hedonism, or the “increased quality of life” being short-term rather than long term. You felt this too, since you mentioned junk food and gambling.
Finally, most of those who are miserable about the economy today tells me that they commute, work, eat, shower and sleep. They do not have time and energy for anything else. So this is an excellent metric! Has hours worked increased? Is free time left after necessary daily chores decreasing? If they’re not, then it must be that life has gotten worse psychologically, and that the decrease in mental energy, rather than time, makes life feel as if it’s nothing but a struggle. 4 hours of free time which would be spent socializing in the past might have turned into 4 hours of free time spend ruminating or on unfulfilling escapism.
Agreed that we have serious problems today. But I don’t think they are mostly economic in nature. The main new economic problem is that life is now full of traps that didn’t used to exist. High-quality nutritious food is much cheaper than in the 1950s, but junk food is even cheaper and tastes delicious. You can do sports gambling on your phone. You can doomscroll TikTok on your phone. This is a “skill issue”, but many people get hooked on junk food or TikTok as children and children are going to be unskilled. If you avoid the traps, things have never been better (from a purely economic perspective).
I think our main problems are social, cultural, and [redacted]. Unfortunately, a full discussion of them would require touching on some forbidden topics.
They both are and aren’t. Modern molochian problems stem from actions which maximize income, and with the death of god, materialism is winning against traditional morality. We don’t need more money in order to be happier, but on the other hand, living paycheck to paycheck is really hard on the psyche, and it often feels like everyone is out to bleed you dry.
I also think we have less alternatives to these traps than we used to. There’s less communities and family gatherings, less nature to walk in, less social activities around town. Many improvements require collective effort rather than individual effort. I’m immune to these traps, so I don’t think they’re solely to blame for the worsening conditions.
You don’t think that the million laws, regulations and paperwork requirements makes it more difficult than in the past to invent new things or start a business?
I agree about [redacted]. If you’re refering to ideas which aren’t just taboo in our current era, but in most or all eras, feel free to DM more about them. I like hearing such takes, but they’re anti-memetic so all search engines work against me.