What I have an issue with is the apparent break of the L→H mapping when one postulates top-down causation, like free choice, i.e. multiple different H’s reachable from the same microstate.
If there is indeterminism at the micro level , there is not the slightest doubt that it can be amplified to the macro level, because quantum mechanics as an experimental science depends on the ability to make macroscopic records of events involving single particles.
Amplifying microscopic indeterminism is definitely a thing. It doesn’t help the free choice argument though, since the observer is not the one making the choice, the underlying quantum mechanics does.
Macroscopic indeterminism is sufficient to establish real, not merely logical, counterfactuals.
Besides that, It would be helpful to separate the ideas of dualism , agency and free choice. If the person making the decision is not some ghost in the machine, then they the only thing they can be is the machine, as a total system,. In that case, the question becomes the question of whether the system as a whole can choose, could have chosen otherwise, etc.
But you’re in good company: Sam Harris is similarly confused.
But you’re in good company: Sam Harris is similarly confused.
Not condescending in the least :P
There are no “real” counterfactuals, only the models in the observer’s mind, some eventually proven better reflecting observations than others.
It would be helpful to separate the ideas of dualism , agency and free choice. If the person making the decision is not some ghost in the machine, then they the only thing they can be is the machine, as a total system,. In that case, the question becomes the question of whether the system as a whole can choose, could have chosen otherwise, etc.
It would be helpful, yes, if they were separable. Free choice as anything other than illusionism is tantamount to dualism.
There are no “real” counterfactuals, only the models in the observer’s mind, some eventually proven better reflecting observations than others.
You need to argue for that claim, not just state it. The contrary claim is supported by a simple argument: if an even is indeterministic, it need not have happened, or need not have happened that way. Therefore, there is a real possibility that it did not happened, or happened differently—and that is a real counterfactual.
It would be helpful, yes, if they were separable. Free choice as anything other than illusionism is tantamount to dualism.
if an even is indeterministic, it need not have happened, or need not have happened that way
There is no such thing as “need” in Physics. There are physical laws, deterministic or probabilistic, and that’s it. “Need” is a human concept that has no physical counterpart. Your “simple argument” is an emotional reaction.
Your comment has no relevance, because probablistic laws automatically imply counterfactuals as well. In fact it’s just another way of saying the same thing. I could have shown it in modal logic, too.
If there is indeterminism at the micro level , there is not the slightest doubt that it can be amplified to the macro level, because quantum mechanics as an experimental science depends on the ability to make macroscopic records of events involving single particles.
Amplifying microscopic indeterminism is definitely a thing. It doesn’t help the free choice argument though, since the observer is not the one making the choice, the underlying quantum mechanics does.
Macroscopic indeterminism is sufficient to establish real, not merely logical, counterfactuals.
Besides that, It would be helpful to separate the ideas of dualism , agency and free choice. If the person making the decision is not some ghost in the machine, then they the only thing they can be is the machine, as a total system,. In that case, the question becomes the question of whether the system as a whole can choose, could have chosen otherwise, etc.
But you’re in good company: Sam Harris is similarly confused.
Not condescending in the least :P
There are no “real” counterfactuals, only the models in the observer’s mind, some eventually proven better reflecting observations than others.
It would be helpful, yes, if they were separable. Free choice as anything other than illusionism is tantamount to dualism.
You need to argue for that claim, not just state it. The contrary claim is supported by a simple argument: if an even is indeterministic, it need not have happened, or need not have happened that way. Therefore, there is a real possibility that it did not happened, or happened differently—and that is a real counterfactual.
You need to argue for that claim as well.
There is no such thing as “need” in Physics. There are physical laws, deterministic or probabilistic, and that’s it. “Need” is a human concept that has no physical counterpart. Your “simple argument” is an emotional reaction.
Your comment has no relevance, because probablistic laws automatically imply counterfactuals as well. In fact it’s just another way of saying the same thing. I could have shown it in modal logic, too.
Well, we have reached an impasse. Goodbye.