This is just human decision theory modules doing human decision theory things. It’s a way of saying “defend me or reject me; at any rate, declare your view.” You say something that’s at the extreme end of what you consider defensible in order to act as a Schelling point for defense: “even this is accepted for a member.” In the face of comments that seem like they validate Ziz’s view, if not her methods, this comment calls for an explicit rejection of not Ziz’s views, but Ziz’s mode of approach, by explicitly saying “I am what you hate, I am here, come at me.”
A community that can accept “nazis” (in the vegan sense) cannot also accept “resistance fighters” (in the vegan sense). Either the “nazi” deserves to exist or he doesn’t. But to test this dichotomy, somebody has to out themselves as a “nazi.”
Yes, and also it’s a matter of maintaining the Overton window. Allowing perfectly ordinary and morally unproblematic (at worst!) things like “eating meat” and “wearing leather and wool” and “not caring about wild animal ‘suffering’” to be regarded as something one can’t admit for fear of ostracism is nothing more nor less than allowing one edge of the Overton window to move—toward Ziz.
Hence: strong upvote and full agreement for Richard’s comment.
A community that can accept “nazis” (in the vegan sense) cannot also accept “resistance fighters” (in the vegan sense). Either the “nazi” deserves to exist or he doesn’t. But to test this dichotomy, somebody has to out themselves as a “nazi.”
This doesn’t seem true. It seems like it’s saying that the directly opposing views on this cannot both exist in a “community” (to the extent LW is a community), but they evidently do both exist here (which is to be expected with enough users).
(quoting the comment by Richard_Kennaway that started this thread since it’s 2 years old, and plausibly some will see my comment from the ‘new’ section and be confused by what I write next otherwise)
I eat meat and wear leather and wool. I do think that animals, the larger ones at least, can suffer. But I don’t much care. I don’t care about animal farming, nor the (non-human) animal suffering resulting from carnivores and parasites. I’d rather people not torture their pets, and I’d rather preserve the beauty and variety of nature, but that is the limit of my caring. If I found myself on the surface of a planet on which the evolution of life was just beginning, I would let it go ahead even though it mean all the suffering that the last billion years of this planet have seen.
Bring on the death threats.
[Even if one thinks, in a utilitarian sense, the world would be better without such a person in it], killing them would still be a waste of one’s opportunity to effect the world, given there are much more effective ways to improve the future (e.g., donating $1k to an animal charity does more good IIUC; more ambitiously, helping solve alignment saves all the animals in one go, if we don’t die to unaligned ASI first).
(I feel like this comment would be incomplete without also mentioning that I guess most but not all people stating they’re indifferent to and cause non-human suffering now would reproach the view and behavior eventually, and that relative to future beings who have augmented their thinking ability and lived for thousands of years, all current beings are like children, some hurting others very badly in confusion.)
As an example of a ‘directly opposing view’, I think the world would probably be better without this comment’s author.
That’s a death threat right there, for holding and acting on a directly opposing view (to veganism). So I was not rhetorically exaggerating. Oh, you wouldn’t be so impolite as to do the deed yourself, but, nudge nudge, wouldn’t it be better if everyone of like mind to myself somehow just … didn’t exist? We could all have paradise, if it wasn’t for them! Of course we can’t exterminate them, that’s what nazis do. But we can daydream a world where all the bad people somehow don’t exist any more. Out of such daydreams are nightmares born.
I guess most but not all people stating they’re indifferent to and cause non-human suffering now would reproach the view and behavior eventually, and that relative to future beings who have augmented their thinking ability and lived for thousands of years, all current beings are like children, some hurting others very badly in confusion.
That places you also as one of those children.
ETA: “If only … then we would all live happily ever after” is a child’s fantasy, and of a good many adults. But there is no happily ever after, just a different life to lead, perhaps even a better one. AGI will not change this.
I think there might be some double standard going on here.
You seem to not care much about animal well-being, and @quila evidently does, so would it not be fair from Quila’s perspective to not care much about your well-being? And if Quila doesn’t care about your well-being, then he might think that had you not existed, the world (in a utilitarian sense) would be better.
Quila can similarly say “I don’t care for lives of people who are actively destroying something that I value a lot
(It’s not actually the case that I don’t value their well-being; I don’t want them to suffer and if they were tortured, imagining that would make me sad; I’d prefer beings who don’t care about some subset of other beings / are value-orthogonal to just be prevented from hurting them. I just think Richard, in the current world, probably causes more tragedy, based on the comment, so yes I think the current world would be better if it did not have any such people.)
Agreed about the double standard part, that’s something I was hoping to highlight.
There is also the issue of clarity, I am not sure if Richard has a moderate position that sounds like a very extreme position due to the framing or if he genuinely shares this extreme position.
I do think that animals, the larger ones at least, can suffer. But I don’t much care.
Does this mean a more moderate take of “I don’t care enough to take any actions, because I don’t believe that I am personally causing much suffering to animals” or a very radical take of “I would rather take $10 than substantially improve the well-being of all animals”?
What seems radical depends on where one stands. We each of us stand on our own beliefs, and the further away one looks, the more the beliefs over there differ from one’s own. Look sufficiently far and everything you see in the distance will seem extreme and radical. Hence the fallacy that truth lies between extremes, instead of recognising the tautology that one’s own beliefs always lie between those that are extremely different.
Let me put my attitudes in practical terms: I don’t kick dogs, but I have destroyed a wasp’s nest in my garage, and I don’t donate to animal charities. (I don’t donate to many other charities either, but there have been a few.) Let those who think saving the shrimps is worthwhile do so, but I do not travel on that path
Let me put my attitudes in practical terms: I don’t kick dogs, but I have destroyed a wasp’s nest in my garage, and I don’t donate to animal charities. (I don’t donate to many other charities either, but there have been a few.) Let those who think saving the shrimps is worthwhile do so, but I do not travel on that path
This is what I expected. Your take when put in these terms seems pretty moderate. Whereas, when I read your original comment, this take (which presumably stayed the same) seemed very extreme.
In other words, my personal beliefs haven’t changed a single bit and yet my perception of your beliefs changed a lot. I can only imagine that your original comment has been so strongly disagree-voted because of the framing.
This is just human decision theory modules doing human decision theory things. It’s a way of saying “defend me or reject me; at any rate, declare your view.” You say something that’s at the extreme end of what you consider defensible in order to act as a Schelling point for defense: “even this is accepted for a member.” In the face of comments that seem like they validate Ziz’s view, if not her methods, this comment calls for an explicit rejection of not Ziz’s views, but Ziz’s mode of approach, by explicitly saying “I am what you hate, I am here, come at me.”
A community that can accept “nazis” (in the vegan sense) cannot also accept “resistance fighters” (in the vegan sense). Either the “nazi” deserves to exist or he doesn’t. But to test this dichotomy, somebody has to out themselves as a “nazi.”
Yes, and also it’s a matter of maintaining the Overton window. Allowing perfectly ordinary and morally unproblematic (at worst!) things like “eating meat” and “wearing leather and wool” and “not caring about wild animal ‘suffering’” to be regarded as something one can’t admit for fear of ostracism is nothing more nor less than allowing one edge of the Overton window to move—toward Ziz.
Hence: strong upvote and full agreement for Richard’s comment.
This doesn’t seem true. It seems like it’s saying that the directly opposing views on this cannot both exist in a “community” (to the extent LW is a community), but they evidently do both exist here (which is to be expected with enough users).
(quoting the comment by Richard_Kennaway that started this thread since it’s 2 years old, and plausibly some will see my comment from the ‘new’ section and be confused by what I write next otherwise)
[Even if one thinks, in a utilitarian sense, the world would be better without such a person in it], killing them would still be a waste of one’s opportunity to effect the world, given there are much more effective ways to improve the future (e.g., donating $1k to an animal charity does more good IIUC; more ambitiously, helping solve alignment saves all the animals in one go, if we don’t die to unaligned ASI first).
(I feel like this comment would be incomplete without also mentioning that I guess most but not all people stating they’re indifferent to and cause non-human suffering now would reproach the view and behavior eventually, and that relative to future beings who have augmented their thinking ability and lived for thousands of years, all current beings are like children, some hurting others very badly in confusion.)
Me:
quila:
That’s a death threat right there, for holding and acting on a directly opposing view (to veganism). So I was not rhetorically exaggerating. Oh, you wouldn’t be so impolite as to do the deed yourself, but, nudge nudge, wouldn’t it be better if everyone of like mind to myself somehow just … didn’t exist? We could all have paradise, if it wasn’t for them! Of course we can’t exterminate them, that’s what nazis do. But we can daydream a world where all the bad people somehow don’t exist any more. Out of such daydreams are nightmares born.
That places you also as one of those children.
ETA: “If only … then we would all live happily ever after” is a child’s fantasy, and of a good many adults. But there is no happily ever after, just a different life to lead, perhaps even a better one. AGI will not change this.
I think there might be some double standard going on here.
You seem to not care much about animal well-being, and @quila evidently does, so would it not be fair from Quila’s perspective to not care much about your well-being? And if Quila doesn’t care about your well-being, then he might think that had you not existed, the world (in a utilitarian sense) would be better.
Quila can similarly say “I don’t care for lives of people who are actively destroying something that I value a lot
Bring on the death threats!”
(It’s not actually the case that I don’t value their well-being; I don’t want them to suffer and if they were tortured, imagining that would make me sad; I’d prefer beings who don’t care about some subset of other beings / are value-orthogonal to just be prevented from hurting them. I just think Richard, in the current world, probably causes more tragedy, based on the comment, so yes I think the current world would be better if it did not have any such people.)
Agreed about the double standard part, that’s something I was hoping to highlight.
Agreed!
There is also the issue of clarity, I am not sure if Richard has a moderate position that sounds like a very extreme position due to the framing or if he genuinely shares this extreme position.
Does this mean a more moderate take of “I don’t care enough to take any actions, because I don’t believe that I am personally causing much suffering to animals” or a very radical take of “I would rather take $10 than substantially improve the well-being of all animals”?
What seems radical depends on where one stands. We each of us stand on our own beliefs, and the further away one looks, the more the beliefs over there differ from one’s own. Look sufficiently far and everything you see in the distance will seem extreme and radical. Hence the fallacy that truth lies between extremes, instead of recognising the tautology that one’s own beliefs always lie between those that are extremely different.
Let me put my attitudes in practical terms: I don’t kick dogs, but I have destroyed a wasp’s nest in my garage, and I don’t donate to animal charities. (I don’t donate to many other charities either, but there have been a few.) Let those who think saving the shrimps is worthwhile do so, but I do not travel on that path
This is what I expected. Your take when put in these terms seems pretty moderate. Whereas, when I read your original comment, this take (which presumably stayed the same) seemed very extreme.
In other words, my personal beliefs haven’t changed a single bit and yet my perception of your beliefs changed a lot. I can only imagine that your original comment has been so strongly disagree-voted because of the framing.
I have no daydreams about quila, and others of like mind, not existing. Not even about Ziz.
I think that, perhaps, after reading this clarifying comment from you, @quila would change his perception of your position.