So, to be clear, everyone you can think of has been mentioned in previous articles or alerts about Zizians so far? Because I have only been on the periphery of rationalist events for the last several years, but in 2023 I can remember sending this[1] post about rationalist crazies into the San Antonio LW groupchat. A trans woman named Chase Carter, who doesn’t generally attend our meetups, began to argue with me that Ziz (who gets mentioned in the article as an example) was subject to a “disinformation campaign” by rationalists, her goals were actually extremely admirable, and her worst failure was a strategic one in not realizing how few people were like her in the world. At the next meetup we agreed to talk about it further, and she attended (I think for the first time) to explain a very sympathetic background of Ziz’s history and ideas. This was after the alert post but years before any of the recent events.
I have no idea if Chase actually self-identifies as a “Zizian” or is at all dangerous and haven’t spoken to her in a year and a half. I just mention her as an example; I haven’t heard her name brought up anywhere and I really wouldn’t expect to know any of these people to begin with on priors.
Hi Dean (?)! If you have any pressing questions in this vein (or heck, any other vein for that matter) re: me, you’ve always been welcome to ask me in a DM or in the group chat you mentioned. Which I am still in. I’d be down to schedule a zoom call even. I’m an open book. Thanks for your concern (I think?).
Yeah, I haven’t heard of this person, though it’s possible someone I know knows them—that definitely sounds like the kind of person someone should be trying to check in on to me.
I think there are a lot of people out there who will be willing to tell the Ziz sympathetic side of the story. (I mean, I would if asked, though “X did little wrong” seems pretty insane for most people involved and especially for Ziz). Like, I think there’s a certain sort of left anarchismish person who is just, going to be very inclined to take the broke crazy trans women’s side as much as it’s possible to do so. It doesn’t seem possible or even necessarily desirable to track every person with a take like that… whereas with people very very into Zizianism, it seems like important information.
I don’t know exactly what update should be drawn from the fact that people I know were collectively 3 for 3 on having known the people who showed up in recent incidents, information on the topic hasn’t generally been shared freely enough for me to have a whole picture.
Edit: To be thorough about the “everyone I can think of” part, there is this tweet I saw, and you could argue @Slimepriestess hasn’t technically been mentioned in articles or alerts. I don’t really believe either of these people to be dangerous (more confident on Slimepriestess I don’t know much about that Twitter user) but they have explicitly described themselves as Zizian even after recent events, so.
I’ll also explicitly specify that I’m not really inclined to like, list every person I know who is half-fluent in hemisphere nonsense or who has read Sinceriously, there are rather a lot of people who’ve done those things. It’s stuff like, under what situations does this person endorse violence, do they do ideological purity tests for who they’ll be friends with, do they explicitly call themselves a Zizian, and especially whether they’ve started being more reclusive lately.
I think there are a lot of people out there who will be willing to tell the Ziz sympathetic side of the story. (I mean, I would if asked, though “X did little wrong” seems pretty insane for most people involved and especially for Ziz). Like, I think there’s a certain sort of left anarchismish person who is just, going to be very inclined to take the broke crazy trans women’s side as much as it’s possible to do so. It doesn’t seem possible or even necessarily desirable to track every person with a take like that… whereas with people very very into Zizianism, it seems like important information.
I think that describes quite a few people in Rationalist Tumblr, and you could find them reblogging the accounts of the mainliner-Zizian conflict by Somni or pseudonymous pro-Zizian accounts like @aflowerbynoothername and @donttrythisathome (which I don’t think have ever been identified, and I suspect based on style those may be maintained by Ziz and Gwen while in hiding)
(There is also a specific blogger I won’t name out of respect (but who anyone in Rationalist Tumblr will be familiar with) that was a friend of many of the Zizians, including Emma and Ophelia, and was/is heavily involved in their legal defense after the violent clash with Curtis Lind.)
I would, however, caution against overcorrecting: some of the more recent Zizian recruits, like Silver and Ivory (formerly a Rationalist Tumblr mainstay) and Ophelia, both ultimately implicated in violence, seem to have started out as telling the Ziz-sympathetic side of the story without initially approving her ideology. So there is still a slippery slope to watch for, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to do it publicly.
It might be useful to have somewhere a chart of legal names and chosen names so that those of us not on rationalist twitter can keep track. Ivory is the Max who has been charged with Mr. Lind’s murder?
So, to be clear, everyone you can think of has been mentioned in previous articles or alerts about Zizians so far? Because I have only been on the periphery of rationalist events for the last several years, but in 2023 I can remember sending this[1] post about rationalist crazies into the San Antonio LW groupchat. A trans woman named Chase Carter, who doesn’t generally attend our meetups, began to argue with me that Ziz (who gets mentioned in the article as an example) was subject to a “disinformation campaign” by rationalists, her goals were actually extremely admirable, and her worst failure was a strategic one in not realizing how few people were like her in the world. At the next meetup we agreed to talk about it further, and she attended (I think for the first time) to explain a very sympathetic background of Ziz’s history and ideas. This was after the alert post but years before any of the recent events.
I have no idea if Chase actually self-identifies as a “Zizian” or is at all dangerous and haven’t spoken to her in a year and a half. I just mention her as an example; I haven’t heard her name brought up anywhere and I really wouldn’t expect to know any of these people to begin with on priors.
Misremembered that I sent the alert post into the chat, but actually it was the Habryka post about rationalist crazies.
Hi Dean (?)! If you have any pressing questions in this vein (or heck, any other vein for that matter) re: me, you’ve always been welcome to ask me in a DM or in the group chat you mentioned. Which I am still in. I’d be down to schedule a zoom call even. I’m an open book. Thanks for your concern (I think?).
....I know someone named Chase Novinha? I don’t think it’s the same person, though.
Edit: Confirmed same person, slimepriestess has said they are “safe and accounted for,” and are one of the cofounders of its alignment company.
Yeah, I haven’t heard of this person, though it’s possible someone I know knows them—that definitely sounds like the kind of person someone should be trying to check in on to me.
I think there are a lot of people out there who will be willing to tell the Ziz sympathetic side of the story. (I mean, I would if asked, though “X did little wrong” seems pretty insane for most people involved and especially for Ziz). Like, I think there’s a certain sort of left anarchismish person who is just, going to be very inclined to take the broke crazy trans women’s side as much as it’s possible to do so. It doesn’t seem possible or even necessarily desirable to track every person with a take like that… whereas with people very very into Zizianism, it seems like important information.
I don’t know exactly what update should be drawn from the fact that people I know were collectively 3 for 3 on having known the people who showed up in recent incidents, information on the topic hasn’t generally been shared freely enough for me to have a whole picture.
Edit: To be thorough about the “everyone I can think of” part, there is this tweet I saw, and you could argue @Slimepriestess hasn’t technically been mentioned in articles or alerts. I don’t really believe either of these people to be dangerous (more confident on Slimepriestess I don’t know much about that Twitter user) but they have explicitly described themselves as Zizian even after recent events, so.
I’ll also explicitly specify that I’m not really inclined to like, list every person I know who is half-fluent in hemisphere nonsense or who has read Sinceriously, there are rather a lot of people who’ve done those things. It’s stuff like, under what situations does this person endorse violence, do they do ideological purity tests for who they’ll be friends with, do they explicitly call themselves a Zizian, and especially whether they’ve started being more reclusive lately.
I think that describes quite a few people in Rationalist Tumblr, and you could find them reblogging the accounts of the mainliner-Zizian conflict by Somni or pseudonymous pro-Zizian accounts like @aflowerbynoothername and @donttrythisathome (which I don’t think have ever been identified, and I suspect based on style those may be maintained by Ziz and Gwen while in hiding)
(There is also a specific blogger I won’t name out of respect (but who anyone in Rationalist Tumblr will be familiar with) that was a friend of many of the Zizians, including Emma and Ophelia, and was/is heavily involved in their legal defense after the violent clash with Curtis Lind.)
I would, however, caution against overcorrecting: some of the more recent Zizian recruits, like Silver and Ivory (formerly a Rationalist Tumblr mainstay) and Ophelia, both ultimately implicated in violence, seem to have started out as telling the Ziz-sympathetic side of the story without initially approving her ideology. So there is still a slippery slope to watch for, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to do it publicly.
It might be useful to have somewhere a chart of legal names and chosen names so that those of us not on rationalist twitter can keep track. Ivory is the Max who has been charged with Mr. Lind’s murder?
Check the Detailed timeline of events linked in the OP.