People can certainly decide whether or not a series is likely to interest them on the basis of things like reviews and genre description. If the words “vampire romance quartet mostly aimed at teenage girls” make you want to run screaming, you can certainly have the opinion that the Twilight series is not worth your time to read. It would be unwarranted for you to also pick up other anti-Twilight beliefs (the protagonist is a Mary Sue! The entire series is a vehicle for Mormon morality! There are too many adjectives o noes!), especially given that most of the people who say those things also have not read the books.
I submit, also, that it’s unfair to judge a series’s plot and character development without having some idea of where it ends up; Twilight requires this charity doubly so because so much happens in the last book.
I submit, also, that it’s unfair to judge a series’s plot and character development without having some idea of where it ends up; Twilight requires this charity doubly so because so much happens in the last book.
Disclaimer: I have decided not to read any of the books because I am fairly certain I will not enjoy them. This is based on reactions from people whose tastes agree/disagree with mine and people I consider to be an authority on any particular book’s quality.
If a book’s plot is 75% not entertaining and 25% amazing I would find myself hard-pressed to call the plot good. I think it is totally fair to judge a series’ plot and character development by reading a majority of the plot and character development. If the last quarter is denser than the first three-quarters it speaks more of the last book than of the entire series.
The counterpoint is easier to agree with: If a series has 75% amazing plot and the last book was terrible many people find it frustrating that the last book “ruined the series.” Movies or books with bad endings tend to swing favor against themselves. When I think about it, if 75% good and 25% bad is overall bad, why is 75% bad and 25% good considered overall good?
Obviously this is skimming over huge and valid exceptions and has nothing to do with Twilight itself. Possible objections:
The last 25% is denser and therefore should weigh more heavily than the first 75%
The last 25% brings new meaning to the previous 75%
The first 75% wasn’t really all that bad and the end was totally worth it
In terms of books, I happen to know a lot of people who will put down a book that they do not “get into.” The cutoff will usually be within the first 25%. The peak-end rule would explain how people judge the last thing they read as more important than what they have read before that. If they end part way through the book, those last few pages will matter more.
In terms of a book’s quality, I am not sure that the peak-end rule is the appropriate way to judge the book. It may be a good way to judge the experience of the book, but the book itself can have a great ending and still be terrible. I can also immensely enjoy a terrible book.
In terms of Twilight, I am fairly certain that even if I enjoyed the ending I will not enjoy reading the series as a whole.
I do not enjoy reading most biographies but I consider the information gleaned to be good. The book as a whole is worth reading but the experience of reading the book is not high on my list of good experiences. I suppose the end result of knowing more can be wrapped into the term “experience.” I, however, am more thinking of “the experience” as aesthetics.
Also, if I read the same book twice I will have different experiences. Does the quality of the book change? If I read a book out loud with my significant other the experience will have much more meaning than the book provided on its own.
The last book (slightly more than 25%; it’s the longest of the four), in this case, provides a well-worth-the-wait payoff for the slow pacing of the first three. Endings in general are worth more than their weight in paper, because they either give the story’s journey a destination, or they make the entire story pointless. A story with a punchy beginning and a disappointing ending is a worse story than a story with a meandering beginning and a stunning finish. For instance, I think the Liveship Chronicles have about the same ratio of good-to-bad, but because Liveship used it all up in book one and then left me with a total downer of an ending, I’m never touching the books again (nor, in all likelihood, anything else by Robin Hobb). Twilight was slower to start and had a great finish; it has reread value.
Endings in general are worth more than their weight in paper, because they either give the story’s journey a destination, or they make the entire story pointless.
Hmm. I guess I look for different things in books than you do. I like the journey of the story. I really do not care too much about where the journey ends or starts. I like the middle. If the middle is crap in a book I will never, ever read it again. I can endure a bad beginning or a mediocre ending, but if the middle is a desert I have a hard time liking the book. If 70% “blah” leads into 30% “wow”, why did I bother with the first 70%? Give me a summary of the 70% and let me read the good parts.
I suppose some of this sentiment comes from the fact that there is no good reason for any part of any book to be blah. 70% bad and 30% good is strictly worse than 70% good. There are books that exist where the entire thing is worth reading and I only have so much reading time.
Another guess at the source of this sentiment is that I actually enjoy the writing. I like good writing as much as I like a good story. I enjoy books that are about nothing in particular and have no great story to tell if they are written well. 70% bad writing is not worth 30% good story.
Of course, as I mentioned, I am not talking directly about Twilight since I have not read more than a few sentences.
The last book (slightly more than 25%; it’s the longest of the four), in this case, provides a well-worth-the-wait payoff for the slow pacing of the first three.
I am not really talking about pace. I like slow pace if it fits.
I think people like Alicorn who enjoy books for story and plot, become annoyed at unsatisfying endings, etc., generally tend to group themselves into what’s called “genre” fiction (particularly SF/F, although SF has the “cool ideas” component also), while people like you who are more attracted to good prose style and what you might call “small-scale enjoyability” tend to group into “classic” fiction.
I have this debate (“what makes a book good?”) with my friends frequently, since they’re mostly in Alicorn’s camp and over the last decade I’ve drifted steadily into yours.
I really do not think there is anything inherent in any genre that prevents good writing or good stories. I like cool ideas for stories but get really annoyed when the writing is poor. I would claim I like the story but dislike the writing.
I have this debate (“what makes a book good?”) with my friends frequently, since they’re mostly in Alicorn’s camp and over the last decade I’ve drifted steadily into yours.
My camp is one where bad writing trumps a good story. A bad story pushes me toward disliking a book with good writing but with a much lesser force.
My justification for this is that it is really easy to come up with a good story and really hard to write well.
For comparison, good stories hold much more weight in other mediums. Movies, in particular, have to have a good story or I will probably not watch it again.
Personally I wouldn’t go so far as to say writing “trumps” story, just that they both have significant weight.
My justification for this is that it is really easy to come up with a good story and really hard to write well.
My justification is simply that good writing should be good through its entire power spectrum, from individual word choice, to a well-crafted sentence, to an engaging scene, to a meaningful overarching plot. Having one component that’s excellent doesn’t justify poor performance in others; everything weighs in together. (Of course, there are some authors (Dan Brown springs to mind) whose prose style is just so awful that I can’t make it through even a single page, so I have no chance of appreciating the plot.)
I suppose I’m probably unique in my approach to stories because I loathe surprises (to the point where I’d rather get nothing at all on my birthday than anticipate getting something but not know what). So I tend to like re-reading more than reading for the first time, since I know what to expect. This causes me to place a high importance on endings, because if what I expect while re-reading a book (or reading it for the first time, if I’ve found a synopsis on the Internet) is a lousy ending, I won’t enjoy the rest of it much.
I suppose I’m probably unique in my approach to stories [...]
Well, probably not unique, but certainly nowhere near how I approach them. As such, I doubt that you or I could ever recommend a book to each other with any useful accuracy. Good to know, I guess, if Less Wrong ever turns into a book club?
People can certainly decide whether or not a series is likely to interest them on the basis of things like reviews and genre description. If the words “vampire romance quartet mostly aimed at teenage girls” make you want to run screaming, you can certainly have the opinion that the Twilight series is not worth your time to read. It would be unwarranted for you to also pick up other anti-Twilight beliefs (the protagonist is a Mary Sue! The entire series is a vehicle for Mormon morality! There are too many adjectives o noes!), especially given that most of the people who say those things also have not read the books.
I submit, also, that it’s unfair to judge a series’s plot and character development without having some idea of where it ends up; Twilight requires this charity doubly so because so much happens in the last book.
Disclaimer: I have decided not to read any of the books because I am fairly certain I will not enjoy them. This is based on reactions from people whose tastes agree/disagree with mine and people I consider to be an authority on any particular book’s quality.
If a book’s plot is 75% not entertaining and 25% amazing I would find myself hard-pressed to call the plot good. I think it is totally fair to judge a series’ plot and character development by reading a majority of the plot and character development. If the last quarter is denser than the first three-quarters it speaks more of the last book than of the entire series.
The counterpoint is easier to agree with: If a series has 75% amazing plot and the last book was terrible many people find it frustrating that the last book “ruined the series.” Movies or books with bad endings tend to swing favor against themselves. When I think about it, if 75% good and 25% bad is overall bad, why is 75% bad and 25% good considered overall good?
Obviously this is skimming over huge and valid exceptions and has nothing to do with Twilight itself. Possible objections:
The last 25% is denser and therefore should weigh more heavily than the first 75%
The last 25% brings new meaning to the previous 75%
The first 75% wasn’t really all that bad and the end was totally worth it
This is just a fact about how humans experience events—the end matters more than anything. See the peak-end rule.
In terms of books, I happen to know a lot of people who will put down a book that they do not “get into.” The cutoff will usually be within the first 25%. The peak-end rule would explain how people judge the last thing they read as more important than what they have read before that. If they end part way through the book, those last few pages will matter more.
In terms of a book’s quality, I am not sure that the peak-end rule is the appropriate way to judge the book. It may be a good way to judge the experience of the book, but the book itself can have a great ending and still be terrible. I can also immensely enjoy a terrible book.
In terms of Twilight, I am fairly certain that even if I enjoyed the ending I will not enjoy reading the series as a whole.
It seems strange to judge the experience of a book differently than the book itself. Does the book have value other than in ways that affect you?
Maybe I’m misreading you?
I do not enjoy reading most biographies but I consider the information gleaned to be good. The book as a whole is worth reading but the experience of reading the book is not high on my list of good experiences. I suppose the end result of knowing more can be wrapped into the term “experience.” I, however, am more thinking of “the experience” as aesthetics.
Also, if I read the same book twice I will have different experiences. Does the quality of the book change? If I read a book out loud with my significant other the experience will have much more meaning than the book provided on its own.
The last book (slightly more than 25%; it’s the longest of the four), in this case, provides a well-worth-the-wait payoff for the slow pacing of the first three. Endings in general are worth more than their weight in paper, because they either give the story’s journey a destination, or they make the entire story pointless. A story with a punchy beginning and a disappointing ending is a worse story than a story with a meandering beginning and a stunning finish. For instance, I think the Liveship Chronicles have about the same ratio of good-to-bad, but because Liveship used it all up in book one and then left me with a total downer of an ending, I’m never touching the books again (nor, in all likelihood, anything else by Robin Hobb). Twilight was slower to start and had a great finish; it has reread value.
Hmm. I guess I look for different things in books than you do. I like the journey of the story. I really do not care too much about where the journey ends or starts. I like the middle. If the middle is crap in a book I will never, ever read it again. I can endure a bad beginning or a mediocre ending, but if the middle is a desert I have a hard time liking the book. If 70% “blah” leads into 30% “wow”, why did I bother with the first 70%? Give me a summary of the 70% and let me read the good parts.
I suppose some of this sentiment comes from the fact that there is no good reason for any part of any book to be blah. 70% bad and 30% good is strictly worse than 70% good. There are books that exist where the entire thing is worth reading and I only have so much reading time.
Another guess at the source of this sentiment is that I actually enjoy the writing. I like good writing as much as I like a good story. I enjoy books that are about nothing in particular and have no great story to tell if they are written well. 70% bad writing is not worth 30% good story.
Of course, as I mentioned, I am not talking directly about Twilight since I have not read more than a few sentences.
I am not really talking about pace. I like slow pace if it fits.
I think people like Alicorn who enjoy books for story and plot, become annoyed at unsatisfying endings, etc., generally tend to group themselves into what’s called “genre” fiction (particularly SF/F, although SF has the “cool ideas” component also), while people like you who are more attracted to good prose style and what you might call “small-scale enjoyability” tend to group into “classic” fiction.
I have this debate (“what makes a book good?”) with my friends frequently, since they’re mostly in Alicorn’s camp and over the last decade I’ve drifted steadily into yours.
I agree.
I really do not think there is anything inherent in any genre that prevents good writing or good stories. I like cool ideas for stories but get really annoyed when the writing is poor. I would claim I like the story but dislike the writing.
My camp is one where bad writing trumps a good story. A bad story pushes me toward disliking a book with good writing but with a much lesser force.
My justification for this is that it is really easy to come up with a good story and really hard to write well.
For comparison, good stories hold much more weight in other mediums. Movies, in particular, have to have a good story or I will probably not watch it again.
Personally I wouldn’t go so far as to say writing “trumps” story, just that they both have significant weight.
My justification is simply that good writing should be good through its entire power spectrum, from individual word choice, to a well-crafted sentence, to an engaging scene, to a meaningful overarching plot. Having one component that’s excellent doesn’t justify poor performance in others; everything weighs in together. (Of course, there are some authors (Dan Brown springs to mind) whose prose style is just so awful that I can’t make it through even a single page, so I have no chance of appreciating the plot.)
I suppose I’m probably unique in my approach to stories because I loathe surprises (to the point where I’d rather get nothing at all on my birthday than anticipate getting something but not know what). So I tend to like re-reading more than reading for the first time, since I know what to expect. This causes me to place a high importance on endings, because if what I expect while re-reading a book (or reading it for the first time, if I’ve found a synopsis on the Internet) is a lousy ending, I won’t enjoy the rest of it much.
Well, probably not unique, but certainly nowhere near how I approach them. As such, I doubt that you or I could ever recommend a book to each other with any useful accuracy. Good to know, I guess, if Less Wrong ever turns into a book club?