I think it’s mostly on major thing is the difference between “hey guys, this concept is ready to use, with an implication of ‘Let’s Take Some Actions relating to it’” vs “hey guys, here’s some ideas, are they the right ideas i dunno maybe let’s think some more?”. Usually when I’m forming an idea (in particular relating to social interactions), it’s because I think something is going wrong that warranted thinking about to figure out how to make it go right.
When I shift towards “enable more original seeing on the margin”, I’m mostly giving up (either partly or in-entirety) on using the post as a coordination-rallying-point.
I think it’s basically always the case that a) my conception of a problem isn’t actually fully accurate, b) even if it is, it’s healthy for people to original-see it for themselves. But, also, I think actually solving coordination problems requires taking incremental steps that somewhat simplify things even if you or everyone else is still a bit confused in some way.
My model of you is mostly not trying to do the “rally people in a direction” much at all.
I do think there’s lots of room for improvement at “provoke some kind of action while inviting more-original-seeing-on-the-margin.”
If I were starting from “primarily be teasing out an idea and inviting others to do so”, I might try “write some an intro and final paragraph that distills out my best guesses about what to make of the situation” (while leaving most of the post in exploratory mode). If I were starting from “primarily be rallying people”, ask myself if I’m actually deconfused myself enough for rallying to be reasonable, and regardless phrase the essay with some original-seeing-of-my-own, trying to think through concrete examples without my frame.
I think Noticing Frame Differences leans somewhat in the “teasing out idea” direction, and Recursive Middle Manager Hell leans in the “rally people” direction (Recursive Middle Manager Hell was itself a distillation of Zvi’s Mazes sequence that I think pushed much harder against original seeing and instead just pushing a frame to rally people around).
>My model of you is mostly not trying to do the “rally people in a direction” much at all.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but: I think actual me in fact is trying to “rally people in a direction” to a substantial degree!
Except that “rally” is perhaps not a very good word for my strategy. I’m not sure what to call it, but I think that I am very frequently trying to go, “LOOK AT THIS THING. Think about this thing. If I just tell you about it and argue for it you will not have looked at it, and I want you to look at it. I have looked at it and thought about it and I think it’s important, and I think it’s important that all of us look at it and think about it, because understanding it correctly may be critical to our collective success.” And my overarching project is perhaps something like “Cause people to be able to look at things.”
Nod, makes sense. But your project is fundamentally about the looking-at-things, whereas main is more like “let’s look at things when that’s useful” but it’s not the primary goal.
Harumph, I also say “let’s look at things when that’s useful” and I do not consider looking at things to be the primary goal. “Being able to look at things” is an instrumental goal toward “looking at things that it’s useful to look at”, and “figuring out which things it’s useful to look at” is a really big part of “being good at looking at things” [see forthcoming essay “Locating Fulcrum Experiences”]. (My harumph is frustration at my own failure to communicate, not at you.)
Like on various occasions I’ve [something other than rallied] people to look at groundedness, at courage, at dreams, at memory, at learning, at defensiveness, at boredom, at each particular CFAR unit, and at a bunch of other things besides looking itself. Looking itself is only central to my overarching project, because I think it’s a really really important piece of rationality that’s poorly developed in the communal art.
Yeah I agree you have done something-other-than-rallied that results in people looking at the things.
And yeah makes sense that my phrasing didn’t feel like an accurate description of what you said. (I think there is something-my-phrasing-was-meaning-to-point at that is probably a true distinction, but, not sure I can get any closer to it easily)
I also claim that I’ve been fairly successful thus far, at “[something other than rally] people in a direction”, in many cases. Perhaps what I am attempting to communicate in my partial-criticism of this essay is “boo rallying, find better ways to [something] people in directions”.
Note: I did almost no original seeing while writing the previous comment. If I had wanted to, I’d have started with “hmm, what things have I written, what did they actually appear to do? What was it like to write them?” (which I find more effortful than “write my cached headline I remember and then write some stuff to expound on the details”, which is what I actually did. I am more aware of the difference thanks to you, fwiw)
I think
it’s mostlyon major thing is the difference between “hey guys, this concept is ready to use, with an implication of ‘Let’s Take Some Actions relating to it’” vs “hey guys, here’s some ideas, are they the right ideas i dunno maybe let’s think some more?”. Usually when I’m forming an idea (in particular relating to social interactions), it’s because I think something is going wrong that warranted thinking about to figure out how to make it go right.When I shift towards “enable more original seeing on the margin”, I’m mostly giving up (either partly or in-entirety) on using the post as a coordination-rallying-point.
I think it’s basically always the case that a) my conception of a problem isn’t actually fully accurate, b) even if it is, it’s healthy for people to original-see it for themselves. But, also, I think actually solving coordination problems requires taking incremental steps that somewhat simplify things even if you or everyone else is still a bit confused in some way.
My model of you is mostly not trying to do the “rally people in a direction” much at all.
I do think there’s lots of room for improvement at “provoke some kind of action while inviting more-original-seeing-on-the-margin.”
If I were starting from “primarily be teasing out an idea and inviting others to do so”, I might try “write some an intro and final paragraph that distills out my best guesses about what to make of the situation” (while leaving most of the post in exploratory mode). If I were starting from “primarily be rallying people”, ask myself if I’m actually deconfused myself enough for rallying to be reasonable, and regardless phrase the essay with some original-seeing-of-my-own, trying to think through concrete examples without my frame.
I think Noticing Frame Differences leans somewhat in the “teasing out idea” direction, and Recursive Middle Manager Hell leans in the “rally people” direction (Recursive Middle Manager Hell was itself a distillation of Zvi’s Mazes sequence that I think pushed much harder against original seeing and instead just pushing a frame to rally people around).
>My model of you is mostly not trying to do the “rally people in a direction” much at all.
Perhaps a bit off topic, but: I think actual me in fact is trying to “rally people in a direction” to a substantial degree!
Except that “rally” is perhaps not a very good word for my strategy. I’m not sure what to call it, but I think that I am very frequently trying to go, “LOOK AT THIS THING. Think about this thing. If I just tell you about it and argue for it you will not have looked at it, and I want you to look at it. I have looked at it and thought about it and I think it’s important, and I think it’s important that all of us look at it and think about it, because understanding it correctly may be critical to our collective success.” And my overarching project is perhaps something like “Cause people to be able to look at things.”
Nod, makes sense. But your project is fundamentally about the looking-at-things, whereas main is more like “let’s look at things when that’s useful” but it’s not the primary goal.
Harumph, I also say “let’s look at things when that’s useful” and I do not consider looking at things to be the primary goal. “Being able to look at things” is an instrumental goal toward “looking at things that it’s useful to look at”, and “figuring out which things it’s useful to look at” is a really big part of “being good at looking at things” [see forthcoming essay “Locating Fulcrum Experiences”]. (My harumph is frustration at my own failure to communicate, not at you.)
Like on various occasions I’ve [something other than rallied] people to look at groundedness, at courage, at dreams, at memory, at learning, at defensiveness, at boredom, at each particular CFAR unit, and at a bunch of other things besides looking itself. Looking itself is only central to my overarching project, because I think it’s a really really important piece of rationality that’s poorly developed in the communal art.
Yeah I agree you have done something-other-than-rallied that results in people looking at the things.
And yeah makes sense that my phrasing didn’t feel like an accurate description of what you said. (I think there is something-my-phrasing-was-meaning-to-point at that is probably a true distinction, but, not sure I can get any closer to it easily)
I also claim that I’ve been fairly successful thus far, at “[something other than rally] people in a direction”, in many cases. Perhaps what I am attempting to communicate in my partial-criticism of this essay is “boo rallying, find better ways to [something] people in directions”.
But maybe not. I can’t actually belief report “boo rallying”.
Note: I did almost no original seeing while writing the previous comment. If I had wanted to, I’d have started with “hmm, what things have I written, what did they actually appear to do? What was it like to write them?” (which I find more effortful than “write my cached headline I remember and then write some stuff to expound on the details”, which is what I actually did. I am more aware of the difference thanks to you, fwiw)