To put things briefly, it looks like you’ve reversed most of the things I said.
I’m talking about “you” (as in, any given individual that finds themselves in a situation where they think they are too self-involved). I can’t fix anything for you and I don’t want to. I’m just saying, this seems to be one of the things that needs to be done. By me. By anyone who thinks they are too self-involved (and by anyone who doesn’t think that but still IS too self-involved). Certainly if they are aware of a sense of excessive self-involvement and they want to change that, the only way to do so seems to be, well.. doing something that moves their locus of attention away from themselves :)
It’s what I’ll do because I want to be less self-involved, and if anyone else wants to be less self-involved, I believe that this is an effective course of action and hope that they try it. And yes, I believe that people being less self-involved (among many other necessary improvements) is essential to a better society. That’s all.
Do you think maybe I’m the one who should be deciding whether this is a problem at all, and whether/how I should fix it?
Totally. That’s what the entire thing is about! It is your own problem if you have it, and this is a way that you can address it! And others have it too ( I will absolutely maintain that excessive self-absorption is a problem every human being faces), so seeing you taking action to remedy it in yourself can also encourage them to change their actions.
Social norms are definitely written mostly by extraverts. The only way that’s going to ever change is if somehow extraverts decide collectively to be less involved in socializing.. and introverts decide to be -more- involved in socializing. (I’m stating this as a logical necessity, because AFAICS the reason that social norms are written by extraverts is essentially self-selection.).
I recognize this and that’s why I’m promoting taking responsibility for saying ‘no, I don’t want to talk right now’ as well as promoting getting involved—because as far as I can see, there is no alternative that preserves the possibility of people being able to develop relationships beyond merely what is expected in their environment. I’m not saying it’s easy to say no, I’m saying it is your responsibility to do so at times, just as it’s your responsibility to solve the problem of self-involvement if you have it. You seem to agree with this principle, seeing as you identify as an introvert and are speaking up :)
I’ve read and discussed temperaments in general, and introverts/extraverts in specific, a lot. I can recommend Dorothy Rowe’s books on the subject (eg. ‘The successful self’), as they seem to be the only ones that manage to strike precisely at the heart of things.
I am quite familiar with the fact that introverts have difficulty saying no, or to put it another way, being impolite. Also with the fact that they spend a lot of time inside their own head. If you want to see that I can appreciate their good points, I can say that they typically are better at methodical thinking and in general anything that’s highly structured, they tend to have a stronger sense of self, and are better at deciding on and following principles. They tend to have fewer relationships but be more invested in the ones they do have. A majority of artists and writers are introverted. Naturally I don’t have experience with what it is exactly like to be an introvert, but I do understand that for introverts, essentially the thing that scares them the most is losing control over themselves, so they spend a lot of time honing that control (largely by carefully maintaining and building on their internal meaning-structures). I recognize that being interrupted in this process can be quite jarring. I do maintain that if a person then experiences seething rage or other extreme emotions after being interrupted, that’s a problem in their thinking they need to fix.
This seems correct. American culture is definitely, in many ways, more extraverted than Russian culture (the only other culture I have significant experience with), despite (somewhat paradoxically) the greater emphasis on collectivity in Russian culture, and a somewhat lesser attention paid to many classes of social faux pas than American culture. “Familiarity” is a greater social sin in Russian culture than it is in American culture.
As a corollary to this, people raised in the Russian culture generally view American social interaction as “fake”.
I remember discussing today how ‘constant improvement’—a classic introvert value—is an everyday concept in Japan. So, yes. I do think that there’s a general self-selection effect regardless of culture, where introverts don’t get as much of a say in social norms precisely because they are usually less involved in socializing, but that’s just speculative currently.
Also, it occurs to me that there is indeed irony in what you’re saying: you think forcing your interaction on others… makes you less self-involved?
Or am I misunderstanding you yet again? If so, then I kindly request that you actually spell out, in detail, just what it is you’re advocating, and why.
“forcing” is your framing. To be completely blunt, I reject it. The point is that when two people manage to really genuinely communicate, something is created which transcends either of them, and this draws them both out of their own preconceived frames.
Human social interaction, more specifically talking, is ordinary. Force enters the picture after someone has clearly said “No, I don’t want to do this / I’m not interested / etc” and not before.
Otherwise, you’re trying to make the person approaching you responsible for your internal state—A frame I similarly have no compunction about utterly rejecting. You’re responsible for your state, they are responsible for theirs. You don’t communicate perfectly, so if you’re trying to (implicitly, not explicitly) communicate ‘not interested’ and they are receiving a different message, well, chances are your communication failed. Which is primarily your responsibility.
Overall my impression is that you have this axe to grind about being ‘forced’ but really no-one except you is talking about force here.
Otherwise, you’re trying to make the person approaching you responsible for your internal state—A frame I similarly have no compunction about utterly rejecting. You’re responsible for your state, they are responsible for theirs.
People affect each other. I’m dubious about the moral frames which say that people ought to be able to do something (not be affected in some inconvenient way) when it’s so clear that few if any people can do that.
I can see what you mean, but I’m afraid that the furthest I can go in agreement is to say that few if any people do do that (or have any idea how)*. We’re certainty poverty-stricken WRT tools for taking responsibility for our own thoughts and emotions. I would argue though that that does not change what responsibilities we do have.
* BTW in a strict sense I don’t think it’s actually that important how you feel in response to an event, as long as you respond appropriately, just that it’s useful to treat “experiencing disproportionate emotions” as a flag that one of your habits of thinking is disjuncted from reality.
Human social interaction, more specifically talking, is ordinary. Force enters the picture after someone has clearly said “No, I don’t want to do this / I’m not interested / etc” and not before.
This would only be true if there did not exist social norms which discourage such responses. But there are, so what you say is not true. In fact, you introducing yourself to me on a plan in the manner described near the top of this thread is inherently forceful, even if you do not recognize it as such.
Otherwise, you’re trying to make the person approaching you responsible for your internal state—A frame I similarly have no compunction about utterly rejecting. You’re responsible for your state, they are responsible for theirs.
People are “responsible for” my mental state in the same sense they are “responsible for” my physical state: if someone punches me and then, when I protest, says “Yeah, well, I’m not responsible for your state!”, that’s rather disingenuous, don’t you think?
You don’t communicate perfectly, so if you’re trying to (implicitly, not explicitly) communicate ‘not interested’ and they are receiving a different message, well, chances are your communication failed. Which is primarily your responsibility.
That’s certainly a very convenient position to take if what you want is to be able to force interaction on others and not incur social disapproval. “What’s that? He didn’t want me to accost him and start chatting him up? Well I guess he should have communicated that better, now shouldn’t he?”
Look, it’s true that we often communicate badly; illusion of transparency and all that. But to take this as general license for plowing ahead and leaving behind any attempt to consider your fellow human beings’ preferences until such time as they expend significant emotional energy to make them clear to you — that is simply inconsiderate, to say the least. (And this is coming from someone on the autism spectrum, who, I assure you, understands very well the difficulty of divining the mental states of other humans!)
Overall my impression is that you have this axe to grind about being ‘forced’ but really no-one except you is talking about force here.
Not talking about force does not magically cause there to not be any force.
Finally, I once again note...
when two people manage to really genuinely communicate, something is created which transcends either of them, and this draws them both out of their own preconceived frames.
… that you talk about social interaction as if it’s this wonderful and amazing thing that, obviously, everyone should want, because it’s obviously so wonderful.
People are “responsible for” my mental state in the same sense they are “responsible for” my physical state: if someone punches me and then, when I protest, says “Yeah, well, I’m not responsible for your state!”, that’s rather disingenuous, don’t you think?
What it is is an absurd equivocation. Punching someone in the face is not the same as introducing yourself to them.
Of course it’s not the same. But the framing of “Is it ok to interact with a person in this way I find enjoyable if they might not.” is the part that’s important. I am currently seeing a person who is masochistic. When she was a child, she literally had NO IDEA that punching people was not ok because they did not enjoy it the way she would. Said is overemphasizing but the point that a social interaction can be negative and stressful for someone EVEN if you think it’s always an awesome thing is an important thing to recognize. I think on net most introductions are probably +value but the original over the top example is a perfect pointer to what NOT to do if you want to introduce yourself but also care about not ruining an Introvert’s day.
I’m just saying, this seems to be one of the things that needs to be done. By me. By anyone who thinks they are too self-involved (and by anyone who doesn’t think that but still IS too self-involved). … It’s what I’ll do because I want to be less self-involved, and if anyone else wants to be less self-involved, I believe that this is an effective course of action and hope that they try it.
(By “this”, I take it you are referring to “talking to other people” and “introducing yourself to people on planes” and so forth.)
So you think you need to be less self-involved. And doing so requires that you force your interaction on others.
That makes your hapless seat-neighbor on the plane your victim, a victim of your self-improvement strategy.
That’s what the entire thing is about! It is your own problem if you have it, and this is a way that you can address it!
The point is that I don’t think it’s a problem and don’t see any need to address it. Me missing out on the amazing contribution you might make to my life is not a problem for me. (I speak here in the general case; no personal judgment intended.)
Social norms are definitely written mostly by extraverts. The only way that’s going to ever change is if somehow extraverts decide collectively to be less involved in socializing.. and introverts decide to be -more- involved in socializing.
Since that is, by definition, rather unlikely, extraverts have a moral obligation to consider the wishes of introverts to a much greater degree than they currently do, especially as far as making and enforcing social norms goes.
as far as I can see, there is no alternative that preserves the possibility of people being able to develop relationships beyond merely what is expected in their environment.
Why on earth are you talking as if this possibility is so obviously and uncontroversially a good thing?
I do understand that for introverts, essentially the thing that scares them the most is losing control over themselves, so they spend a lot of time honing that control
To put things briefly, it looks like you’ve reversed most of the things I said.
I’m talking about “you” (as in, any given individual that finds themselves in a situation where they think they are too self-involved). I can’t fix anything for you and I don’t want to. I’m just saying, this seems to be one of the things that needs to be done. By me. By anyone who thinks they are too self-involved (and by anyone who doesn’t think that but still IS too self-involved). Certainly if they are aware of a sense of excessive self-involvement and they want to change that, the only way to do so seems to be, well.. doing something that moves their locus of attention away from themselves :)
It’s what I’ll do because I want to be less self-involved, and if anyone else wants to be less self-involved, I believe that this is an effective course of action and hope that they try it. And yes, I believe that people being less self-involved (among many other necessary improvements) is essential to a better society. That’s all.
Totally. That’s what the entire thing is about! It is your own problem if you have it, and this is a way that you can address it! And others have it too ( I will absolutely maintain that excessive self-absorption is a problem every human being faces), so seeing you taking action to remedy it in yourself can also encourage them to change their actions.
Social norms are definitely written mostly by extraverts. The only way that’s going to ever change is if somehow extraverts decide collectively to be less involved in socializing.. and introverts decide to be -more- involved in socializing. (I’m stating this as a logical necessity, because AFAICS the reason that social norms are written by extraverts is essentially self-selection.).
I recognize this and that’s why I’m promoting taking responsibility for saying ‘no, I don’t want to talk right now’ as well as promoting getting involved—because as far as I can see, there is no alternative that preserves the possibility of people being able to develop relationships beyond merely what is expected in their environment. I’m not saying it’s easy to say no, I’m saying it is your responsibility to do so at times, just as it’s your responsibility to solve the problem of self-involvement if you have it. You seem to agree with this principle, seeing as you identify as an introvert and are speaking up :)
I’ve read and discussed temperaments in general, and introverts/extraverts in specific, a lot. I can recommend Dorothy Rowe’s books on the subject (eg. ‘The successful self’), as they seem to be the only ones that manage to strike precisely at the heart of things.
I am quite familiar with the fact that introverts have difficulty saying no, or to put it another way, being impolite. Also with the fact that they spend a lot of time inside their own head. If you want to see that I can appreciate their good points, I can say that they typically are better at methodical thinking and in general anything that’s highly structured, they tend to have a stronger sense of self, and are better at deciding on and following principles. They tend to have fewer relationships but be more invested in the ones they do have. A majority of artists and writers are introverted. Naturally I don’t have experience with what it is exactly like to be an introvert, but I do understand that for introverts, essentially the thing that scares them the most is losing control over themselves, so they spend a lot of time honing that control (largely by carefully maintaining and building on their internal meaning-structures). I recognize that being interrupted in this process can be quite jarring. I do maintain that if a person then experiences seething rage or other extreme emotions after being interrupted, that’s a problem in their thinking they need to fix.
Fair?
I believe this is more true of America than a number of other cultures.
This seems correct. American culture is definitely, in many ways, more extraverted than Russian culture (the only other culture I have significant experience with), despite (somewhat paradoxically) the greater emphasis on collectivity in Russian culture, and a somewhat lesser attention paid to many classes of social faux pas than American culture. “Familiarity” is a greater social sin in Russian culture than it is in American culture.
As a corollary to this, people raised in the Russian culture generally view American social interaction as “fake”.
I remember discussing today how ‘constant improvement’—a classic introvert value—is an everyday concept in Japan. So, yes. I do think that there’s a general self-selection effect regardless of culture, where introverts don’t get as much of a say in social norms precisely because they are usually less involved in socializing, but that’s just speculative currently.
Also, it occurs to me that there is indeed irony in what you’re saying: you think forcing your interaction on others… makes you less self-involved?
Or am I misunderstanding you yet again? If so, then I kindly request that you actually spell out, in detail, just what it is you’re advocating, and why.
“forcing” is your framing. To be completely blunt, I reject it. The point is that when two people manage to really genuinely communicate, something is created which transcends either of them, and this draws them both out of their own preconceived frames.
Human social interaction, more specifically talking, is ordinary. Force enters the picture after someone has clearly said “No, I don’t want to do this / I’m not interested / etc” and not before.
Otherwise, you’re trying to make the person approaching you responsible for your internal state—A frame I similarly have no compunction about utterly rejecting. You’re responsible for your state, they are responsible for theirs. You don’t communicate perfectly, so if you’re trying to (implicitly, not explicitly) communicate ‘not interested’ and they are receiving a different message, well, chances are your communication failed. Which is primarily your responsibility.
Overall my impression is that you have this axe to grind about being ‘forced’ but really no-one except you is talking about force here.
People affect each other. I’m dubious about the moral frames which say that people ought to be able to do something (not be affected in some inconvenient way) when it’s so clear that few if any people can do that.
I can see what you mean, but I’m afraid that the furthest I can go in agreement is to say that few if any people do do that (or have any idea how)*. We’re certainty poverty-stricken WRT tools for taking responsibility for our own thoughts and emotions. I would argue though that that does not change what responsibilities we do have.
* BTW in a strict sense I don’t think it’s actually that important how you feel in response to an event, as long as you respond appropriately, just that it’s useful to treat “experiencing disproportionate emotions” as a flag that one of your habits of thinking is disjuncted from reality.
This would only be true if there did not exist social norms which discourage such responses. But there are, so what you say is not true. In fact, you introducing yourself to me on a plan in the manner described near the top of this thread is inherently forceful, even if you do not recognize it as such.
People are “responsible for” my mental state in the same sense they are “responsible for” my physical state: if someone punches me and then, when I protest, says “Yeah, well, I’m not responsible for your state!”, that’s rather disingenuous, don’t you think?
That’s certainly a very convenient position to take if what you want is to be able to force interaction on others and not incur social disapproval. “What’s that? He didn’t want me to accost him and start chatting him up? Well I guess he should have communicated that better, now shouldn’t he?”
Look, it’s true that we often communicate badly; illusion of transparency and all that. But to take this as general license for plowing ahead and leaving behind any attempt to consider your fellow human beings’ preferences until such time as they expend significant emotional energy to make them clear to you — that is simply inconsiderate, to say the least. (And this is coming from someone on the autism spectrum, who, I assure you, understands very well the difficulty of divining the mental states of other humans!)
Not talking about force does not magically cause there to not be any force.
Finally, I once again note...
… that you talk about social interaction as if it’s this wonderful and amazing thing that, obviously, everyone should want, because it’s obviously so wonderful.
Not everyone feels that way.
What it is is an absurd equivocation. Punching someone in the face is not the same as introducing yourself to them.
Of course it’s not the same. But the framing of “Is it ok to interact with a person in this way I find enjoyable if they might not.” is the part that’s important. I am currently seeing a person who is masochistic. When she was a child, she literally had NO IDEA that punching people was not ok because they did not enjoy it the way she would. Said is overemphasizing but the point that a social interaction can be negative and stressful for someone EVEN if you think it’s always an awesome thing is an important thing to recognize. I think on net most introductions are probably +value but the original over the top example is a perfect pointer to what NOT to do if you want to introduce yourself but also care about not ruining an Introvert’s day.
I endorse this formulation. Well explained.
(By “this”, I take it you are referring to “talking to other people” and “introducing yourself to people on planes” and so forth.)
So you think you need to be less self-involved. And doing so requires that you force your interaction on others.
That makes your hapless seat-neighbor on the plane your victim, a victim of your self-improvement strategy.
The point is that I don’t think it’s a problem and don’t see any need to address it. Me missing out on the amazing contribution you might make to my life is not a problem for me. (I speak here in the general case; no personal judgment intended.)
Since that is, by definition, rather unlikely, extraverts have a moral obligation to consider the wishes of introverts to a much greater degree than they currently do, especially as far as making and enforcing social norms goes.
Why on earth are you talking as if this possibility is so obviously and uncontroversially a good thing?
Uh… what.