The main reasons I didn’t use that title were that the piece I’m responding to doesn’t (Lack of social grace is also not always epistemic virtue! Sometimes it’s pure unforced error!)
IUUC, the “Epistemic” in the title of LoSGiaEV is intended as the qualifier—LoSG isn’t an unqualified virute. In the first 3 paragraphs LoSGiaEV lays out what it means by that qualifier. I feel like LoSGiaLoS would be improved if it engaged more with the nuances.
I assume you mean “having the potential to become disastrous; at a point of crisis”
Yes
“Hey moron there’s a car coming” is worse than “There’s a car coming” right?
Yes, but both are worse than just shouting “CAR”. Being shouted at feels bad, along with the implications that you weren’t being careful enough / are a bad driver / are stupid for not looking. When I was younger I was in a car with someone who I respected who was texting as they drove. I saw a car coming but was initially socially nervous and tried to politely get their attention. This didn’t work and in the end I had to shout at them. They felt pretty bad about it but it worked.
Or take expressing disapproving comments or judgements; I’ve often seen people give feedback that only points out one or two flaws with no further commentary. I later learned that the person giving feedback loved most of the piece.
I think this should mainly be orthogonal to social grace. In my initial comment I deliberately put in the bits I agreed with, not because I wanted to be socially gracious but because I wanted to accurately portray what I thought.
There’s a great scene where a scientist is in a room full of people congratulating themselves on the Chernobyl disaster being not that big a deal and being well in hand, and stands up to say things are not fine.
Unfortunately I can’t view the video because it’s copyright blocked. It sounds like a good example of when being socially gracious is useful.
My counterpoint would be to consider what culture led to the scientist having to waste his time on multiple explanations. Should a less socially adept scientist have been ignored?
In pushing the culture of LessWrong we should be wary of such problems. My personal feeling is that LessWrong at the moment is in about the right place on the “Gracious” vs “Honest” pareto front for a given social skill level.
Tying this in with the car example, my wife and I have an agreement when one of us driving. If the passenger sees something dangerous that they think the driver might not have seen, they’re allowed to shout this with no concern for social grace and the driver should not take this as a personal slight.
IUUC, the “Epistemic” in the title of LoSGiaEV is intended as the qualifier—LoSG isn’t an unqualified virute. In the first 3 paragraphs LoSGiaEV lays out what it means by that qualifier. I feel like LoSGiaLoS would be improved if it engaged more with the nuances.
Yes
Yes, but both are worse than just shouting “CAR”. Being shouted at feels bad, along with the implications that you weren’t being careful enough / are a bad driver / are stupid for not looking. When I was younger I was in a car with someone who I respected who was texting as they drove. I saw a car coming but was initially socially nervous and tried to politely get their attention. This didn’t work and in the end I had to shout at them. They felt pretty bad about it but it worked.
I think this should mainly be orthogonal to social grace. In my initial comment I deliberately put in the bits I agreed with, not because I wanted to be socially gracious but because I wanted to accurately portray what I thought.
Unfortunately I can’t view the video because it’s copyright blocked. It sounds like a good example of when being socially gracious is useful.
My counterpoint would be to consider what culture led to the scientist having to waste his time on multiple explanations. Should a less socially adept scientist have been ignored?
In pushing the culture of LessWrong we should be wary of such problems. My personal feeling is that LessWrong at the moment is in about the right place on the “Gracious” vs “Honest” pareto front for a given social skill level.
Tying this in with the car example, my wife and I have an agreement when one of us driving. If the passenger sees something dangerous that they think the driver might not have seen, they’re allowed to shout this with no concern for social grace and the driver should not take this as a personal slight.