Actually, the function of a neg is not to induce insecurity, but to disarm.
My point is only that the neg is an example of bottom-lining. First you decide that you will convince her of something that will have certain effects on her. Then you decide on the evidence that you will highlight to convince her of this.
My point is only that the neg is an example of bottom-lining. First you decide that you will convince her of something that will have certain effects on her. Then you decide on the evidence that you will highlight to convince her of this.
I’m confused. ISTM that Mystery’s primary intention (as stated very frequently by him) is to convey the message, “I am not like other men”. Everything about his behavior and appearance is tailored to communicate that message, and as a result, it is true. He is not like other men, in his appearance and behavior, unless they are imitating him.
Second, suppose that I want you to buy my songs. if I want to convince you that my music is good, then the honest way to do so is to figure out what you like in music, and then to make music with those qualities. But note that there’s no bottom-lining here. When you get the song, you will ideally listen to it first, and then draw the conclusion that it’s good.
Mystery’s “song” is (accurately) portraying himself as a quirky nonconformist who requires more than beauty to impress him.
The real flaw in Mystery’s method is not that the behavior itself is wrong, but that his systematic disassembly and reassembly of large- and small-scale behavior patterns is not a good teaching method for getting people to be attractive, because the act of transmission via breaking down and reassembling inevitably communicates and reinforces various wrong things.
In effect, the breakdown mechanicalizes people and reduces authenticity until someone develops enough confidence of their own—fake it till you make it, so to speak. The problem is that then some people never get past faking it, and the actual faking may be questionable.
In essence, Mystery asked, “what behaviors do I need to perform to attract women?”, and used this same question to inform his training of others.
But the people who are these days rebuilding Mystery’s training methods, have been asking a different, and much better question: “how do I become the kind of person who naturally exhibits the kind of behaviors that (the kind of ) women (I’d be interested in) find attractive?”
Modern methods emphasize identifying the mental and physical characteristics of your ideal mate (“your true 10” in DYD-speak, or your “blueprint woman” in RSD-speak), as a prelude to identifying what sort of man to become… which is more analagous to finding out what kind of music someone likes, so you can play it for them.
Mystery’s real problem, however, was not that he didn’t identify the target audience for his “music”, or that he didn’t try to play the kind of “music” he observed that audience responding to. It’s that he was operating from an assumption that he wasn’t good enough in himself, and that therefore he needed to mimic attractive behaviors, rather than simply becoming attractive himself. To resume your music analogy, it’s as though he believed he needed to lipsync the music of others, rather than to learn to actually “sing” himself.
The larger PUA community, I think (or at least the thought leaders), have come to the conclusion that, despite Mystery’s immense contributions to the analysis and understanding of the social dynamics of meeting and relating to people in nightclubs, this assumption of inferior status and value as a starting point to interaction (because initially, Mystery’s situation was one of needing to lift himself from an inferior status), was a serious mistake that drove the community in bad directions and reinforced the insecurity and immaturity of many, rather than helping them to face and overcome those issues.
Your post is consistent with my understanding, also.
Mystery’s real problem, however, was not that he didn’t identify the target audience for his “music”, or that he didn’t try to play the kind of “music” he observed that audience responding to.
Furthermore, Mystery’s model of women is biased towards the modal female extravert. Since he based most of his understanding of women on his club interactions, he was vulnerable to the availability heuristic. (Look! We are talking about rationality and pickup!)
It is indeed important to understand the modal/median/average women, but unless you actually want to date the type of woman, you need to understand other types of women, also. Yet the view of women in the community seems a bit over-homogenized towards the types of women that PUAs encounter most often.
Furthermore, I think part of the reason that some PUAs sound cynical or patronizing when they talk about women is that PUAs are not the average male. They are probably higher than average in intelligence and introversion, yet they are comparing female extraverts of average intelligence to themselves and finding them lacking; this is an unfair comparison.
Are the women they’re attracted to of average intelligence? I can see arguments pointing in four directions. The 9s and 10s are of average intelligence—it’s the null hypothesis. They’re smarter than average—if appearing maximally attractive takes some skill (and it does), then g should help. They’re less intelligent than average—they’ve been coasting on their looks. They’re of average or above average intelligence, but choose to appear less intelligent so as not to put men off.
Are the women they’re attracted to of average intelligence?
Hey, I resent the implication that all PUAs are attracted to the same kind of women. ;-) (j/k—I resent nothing.)
However, PUA tastes in women are not all alike, at least if you look at their gurus as an indicator. My estimate is that David D seems to go for stability, intelligence, and class, Juggler values interesting and emotional conversation, Soporno seeks fun, sensuality, and maturity/depth. (My personal estimates based solely on information from their publicly available materials.)
Of course, there’s a lot of other gurus who only brag about their ability to pick up “hot” women, or in Mystery’s case, “women of exceptional beauty”, and for them, intelligence doesn’t seem to be something they care about one way or the other.
I suspect this has more to do with these men seeking Status from their ability to “get” these women, rather than seeking the Affiliation and Stimulation of the women’s company. (As is more clearly the case with some of the other gurus I mentioned.)
Furthermore, Mystery’s model of women is biased towards the modal female extravert
Modal?
It is indeed important to understand the modal/median/average women
Oh, I guess you mean “typical”, as opposed to atypical. I thought maybe it was a typo for “model”, since Mystery’s aim was reported to include models, bartenders, strippers, hostesses and other “women hired for their beauty”.
Which kind of underscores your point in an odd way—his observations were NOT based on “average” women at all, but on neurotypical extroverts of above-average appearance.
Which kind of underscores your point in an odd way—his observations were NOT based on “average” women at all, but on neurotypical extroverts of above-average appearance.
Yes, my broader point is that a lot of the observations of PUAs are based on the women they meet the most often. The type of women they meet the most often is club-goers of above average attractiveness. The average intelligence of these women is likely to be around the population average, they are probably above average in extraversion, and they have highly “people-oriented” interests (and they may well be above average in neuroticism and below average in conscientiousness).
These female phenotypes may be common, but there are plenty of other female phenotypes that are less well understand by PUAs. Furthermore, the phenotypes of female club-goers are massively, massively different from the phenotypes of PUAs, who are probably 1-2 standard deviations above the mean in intelligence, above average in introversion, and “thing-oriented” rather than “people-oriented” in their interests (many PUAs might not even be completely neurotypical).
So when we see PUAs holding cynical attitudes towards women, such as “chick crack,” or talking about women as children or pets (these last attitudes are rare, but not unheard of), we should consider that they are unfairly comparing average women to themselves. When PUAs talk about women like they are a different species, perhaps it is because average-intelligence people-oriented female extraverts do seem like a different species from 130 IQ thing-oriented male introverts.
If PUAs were to be interacting with women more psychometrically similar, perhaps they wouldn’t experience the feelings of alienation from women that so many currently do, and which women find off-putting in their speech. Furthermore, my experience is that once I started interacting with women who weren’t 1-2 standard deviations different from me on most major psychometric traits, a lot of the “problems” I was having interacting with women (e.g. not being sufficiently extraverted and dominant) suddenly vanished.
Yet I am reluctant to blame PUAs for not going after women who are like them. First, these women are harder to find, since they are introverts and less likely to go to clubs. Second, I have good reasons to believe that there are simply less nerdy women than nerdy men, for any reasonable operationalization of “nerdy.” There is not a nerdy girl for every nerdy guy.
I find it perfectly understandable that PUAs are basing their models of women on the women that it is easiest for them to find, but I do wish there was a bit more emphasis on building a model of the type of woman that you want and figuring out where to find her. Day game is certainly progress in that direction, and I’ve also had some good results with online dating.
I have good reasons to believe that there are simply less nerdy women than nerdy men
I’d be interested to hear them. I’m aware of the stereotype but not any evidence (other than perhaps dubious IQ data).
Other than that, your comment matches my impressions. I have in the past seen nerdy friends of mine go to bars “to meet women”, and had to ask, “Why would you do that? You’ll just meet women who like going to bars!”
Also, I’ve found that most people seem stupid, so I imagine if I were the sort of person who specifically aimed to meet lots of women, I’d likewise form the impression that most women are stupid. It seems like an easy mistake of generalization for someone with nerdy male friends and average female acquaintances to think “women are stupid”; there but for the grace of FSM go I.
Yet I am reluctant to blame PUAs for not going after women who are like them. First, these women are harder to find, since they are introverts and less likely to go to clubs. Second, I have good reasons to believe that there are simply less nerdy women than nerdy men, for any reasonable operationalization of “nerdy.” There is not a nerdy girl for every nerdy guy.
I find it perfectly understandable that PUAs are basing their models of women on the women that it is easiest for them to find, but I do wish there was a bit more emphasis on building a model of the type of woman that you want and figuring out where to find her. Day game is certainly progress in that direction, and I’ve also had some good results with online dating.
On reflection, I’m not sure “women who are easy to find” is a such a good excuse. They haven’t seen intelligent women in their families or classes?
I realize it’s hard to notice things that you aren’t in the habit of noticing, and I make a serious effort not to insult people for ignorance—if you don’t know something, you don’t know it. Still, I wish these guys could notice that “women are stupid” is an idea which is likely to be self-reinforcing.
And it’s harder to pay attention to other factors when you’re in an environment which includes a lot of supernormal stimuli.
I take your last point in a somewhat different direction—if you don’t know what you want, but you’re trying to build yourself a good life, you’ll be over-influenced by status considerations.
My point is only that the neg is an example of bottom-lining. First you decide that you will convince her of something that will have certain effects on her. Then you decide on the evidence that you will highlight to convince her of this.
I’m confused. ISTM that Mystery’s primary intention (as stated very frequently by him) is to convey the message, “I am not like other men”. Everything about his behavior and appearance is tailored to communicate that message, and as a result, it is true. He is not like other men, in his appearance and behavior, unless they are imitating him.
Also, you said here that:
Mystery’s “song” is (accurately) portraying himself as a quirky nonconformist who requires more than beauty to impress him.
The real flaw in Mystery’s method is not that the behavior itself is wrong, but that his systematic disassembly and reassembly of large- and small-scale behavior patterns is not a good teaching method for getting people to be attractive, because the act of transmission via breaking down and reassembling inevitably communicates and reinforces various wrong things.
In effect, the breakdown mechanicalizes people and reduces authenticity until someone develops enough confidence of their own—fake it till you make it, so to speak. The problem is that then some people never get past faking it, and the actual faking may be questionable.
In essence, Mystery asked, “what behaviors do I need to perform to attract women?”, and used this same question to inform his training of others.
But the people who are these days rebuilding Mystery’s training methods, have been asking a different, and much better question: “how do I become the kind of person who naturally exhibits the kind of behaviors that (the kind of ) women (I’d be interested in) find attractive?”
Modern methods emphasize identifying the mental and physical characteristics of your ideal mate (“your true 10” in DYD-speak, or your “blueprint woman” in RSD-speak), as a prelude to identifying what sort of man to become… which is more analagous to finding out what kind of music someone likes, so you can play it for them.
Mystery’s real problem, however, was not that he didn’t identify the target audience for his “music”, or that he didn’t try to play the kind of “music” he observed that audience responding to. It’s that he was operating from an assumption that he wasn’t good enough in himself, and that therefore he needed to mimic attractive behaviors, rather than simply becoming attractive himself. To resume your music analogy, it’s as though he believed he needed to lipsync the music of others, rather than to learn to actually “sing” himself.
The larger PUA community, I think (or at least the thought leaders), have come to the conclusion that, despite Mystery’s immense contributions to the analysis and understanding of the social dynamics of meeting and relating to people in nightclubs, this assumption of inferior status and value as a starting point to interaction (because initially, Mystery’s situation was one of needing to lift himself from an inferior status), was a serious mistake that drove the community in bad directions and reinforced the insecurity and immaturity of many, rather than helping them to face and overcome those issues.
Your post is consistent with my understanding, also.
Furthermore, Mystery’s model of women is biased towards the modal female extravert. Since he based most of his understanding of women on his club interactions, he was vulnerable to the availability heuristic. (Look! We are talking about rationality and pickup!)
It is indeed important to understand the modal/median/average women, but unless you actually want to date the type of woman, you need to understand other types of women, also. Yet the view of women in the community seems a bit over-homogenized towards the types of women that PUAs encounter most often.
Furthermore, I think part of the reason that some PUAs sound cynical or patronizing when they talk about women is that PUAs are not the average male. They are probably higher than average in intelligence and introversion, yet they are comparing female extraverts of average intelligence to themselves and finding them lacking; this is an unfair comparison.
Are the women they’re attracted to of average intelligence? I can see arguments pointing in four directions. The 9s and 10s are of average intelligence—it’s the null hypothesis. They’re smarter than average—if appearing maximally attractive takes some skill (and it does), then g should help. They’re less intelligent than average—they’ve been coasting on their looks. They’re of average or above average intelligence, but choose to appear less intelligent so as not to put men off.
Hey, I resent the implication that all PUAs are attracted to the same kind of women. ;-) (j/k—I resent nothing.)
However, PUA tastes in women are not all alike, at least if you look at their gurus as an indicator. My estimate is that David D seems to go for stability, intelligence, and class, Juggler values interesting and emotional conversation, Soporno seeks fun, sensuality, and maturity/depth. (My personal estimates based solely on information from their publicly available materials.)
Of course, there’s a lot of other gurus who only brag about their ability to pick up “hot” women, or in Mystery’s case, “women of exceptional beauty”, and for them, intelligence doesn’t seem to be something they care about one way or the other.
I suspect this has more to do with these men seeking Status from their ability to “get” these women, rather than seeking the Affiliation and Stimulation of the women’s company. (As is more clearly the case with some of the other gurus I mentioned.)
Modal?
Oh, I guess you mean “typical”, as opposed to atypical. I thought maybe it was a typo for “model”, since Mystery’s aim was reported to include models, bartenders, strippers, hostesses and other “women hired for their beauty”.
Which kind of underscores your point in an odd way—his observations were NOT based on “average” women at all, but on neurotypical extroverts of above-average appearance.
“Modal,” as in “pertaining to the mode.”
Yes, my broader point is that a lot of the observations of PUAs are based on the women they meet the most often. The type of women they meet the most often is club-goers of above average attractiveness. The average intelligence of these women is likely to be around the population average, they are probably above average in extraversion, and they have highly “people-oriented” interests (and they may well be above average in neuroticism and below average in conscientiousness).
These female phenotypes may be common, but there are plenty of other female phenotypes that are less well understand by PUAs. Furthermore, the phenotypes of female club-goers are massively, massively different from the phenotypes of PUAs, who are probably 1-2 standard deviations above the mean in intelligence, above average in introversion, and “thing-oriented” rather than “people-oriented” in their interests (many PUAs might not even be completely neurotypical).
So when we see PUAs holding cynical attitudes towards women, such as “chick crack,” or talking about women as children or pets (these last attitudes are rare, but not unheard of), we should consider that they are unfairly comparing average women to themselves. When PUAs talk about women like they are a different species, perhaps it is because average-intelligence people-oriented female extraverts do seem like a different species from 130 IQ thing-oriented male introverts.
If PUAs were to be interacting with women more psychometrically similar, perhaps they wouldn’t experience the feelings of alienation from women that so many currently do, and which women find off-putting in their speech. Furthermore, my experience is that once I started interacting with women who weren’t 1-2 standard deviations different from me on most major psychometric traits, a lot of the “problems” I was having interacting with women (e.g. not being sufficiently extraverted and dominant) suddenly vanished.
Yet I am reluctant to blame PUAs for not going after women who are like them. First, these women are harder to find, since they are introverts and less likely to go to clubs. Second, I have good reasons to believe that there are simply less nerdy women than nerdy men, for any reasonable operationalization of “nerdy.” There is not a nerdy girl for every nerdy guy.
I find it perfectly understandable that PUAs are basing their models of women on the women that it is easiest for them to find, but I do wish there was a bit more emphasis on building a model of the type of woman that you want and figuring out where to find her. Day game is certainly progress in that direction, and I’ve also had some good results with online dating.
I’d be interested to hear them. I’m aware of the stereotype but not any evidence (other than perhaps dubious IQ data).
Other than that, your comment matches my impressions. I have in the past seen nerdy friends of mine go to bars “to meet women”, and had to ask, “Why would you do that? You’ll just meet women who like going to bars!”
Also, I’ve found that most people seem stupid, so I imagine if I were the sort of person who specifically aimed to meet lots of women, I’d likewise form the impression that most women are stupid. It seems like an easy mistake of generalization for someone with nerdy male friends and average female acquaintances to think “women are stupid”; there but for the grace of FSM go I.
Does nerdy = intelligent? Or (as I suspect) is nerdiness the only kind of intelligence of interest to most nerds?
Both.
On reflection, I’m not sure “women who are easy to find” is a such a good excuse. They haven’t seen intelligent women in their families or classes?
I realize it’s hard to notice things that you aren’t in the habit of noticing, and I make a serious effort not to insult people for ignorance—if you don’t know something, you don’t know it. Still, I wish these guys could notice that “women are stupid” is an idea which is likely to be self-reinforcing.
And it’s harder to pay attention to other factors when you’re in an environment which includes a lot of supernormal stimuli.
I take your last point in a somewhat different direction—if you don’t know what you want, but you’re trying to build yourself a good life, you’ll be over-influenced by status considerations.
And then you decide that your precautions against causing harm must be good enough.