is a dangerously broad category. For example, one might start downvoting all comments from gender X because we think we need less of that gender because they “contribute negatively”. Or we might start systematically downvoting a particular person even when they make an entirely valid point, because they are “part of a problem” and need to be chased away. No, downvoting should solely be a measure of the degree of accuracy and relevance of a comment to settling the empirical question at hand.
As we become politicized, we will find ways of justifying political actions against people on the “other side”, and having a really broad category like “contribute negatively” will just make it really easy for us to do that. Our brains do all this automatically.
No, downvoting should solely be a measure of the degree of accuracy and relevance of a comment to settling the empirical question at hand.
I don’t think most people think that’s what downvotes are for. But that’s been discussed at great length.
Specifically, I’m under the impression downvote means ‘I want to see fewer comments like this’ at its basis, and any other analysis of what it means proceeds from that and our community standards.
At some point we really do have to enforce community norms to prevent the level of discourse from deteriorating. Antisocial and obnoxious behavior are perfectly valid reasons to downvote a comment, I have a hard time believing you really think they aren’t, and I’m reasonably confident that most of LW is okay with the idea, judging by other comments I’ve seen receive downvotes (not to pick on him, but Annoyance has gotten some of this) for no obvious reason other than tone.
The issues are where to draw the lines, and how to handle it when the community is sharply divded on what constitutes “polite, respectful discussion”. Frankly, the main person I see drawing “us vs. them” lines here is you.
Antisocial and obnoxious behavior are perfectly valid reasons to downvote a comment, I have a hard time believing you really think they aren’t,
Well I think that if the comment is specifically aimed at being obnoxious, e.g.
“you are a loser and a piece of sh*t”
Then that should be killed.
and how to handle it when the community is sharply divded on what constitutes “polite, respectful discussion”.
But if a comment expresses a true proposition about the world, and the main purpose of the comment is to express that comment, e.g. “blacks are dumber than whites, look at all this data I have, and this list of biases about western culture which shows that we are massively prone to ignore the data” (disclaimer: I do not advocate that position), but as a side effect happens to offend someone, then it should not get deleted.
At least this seems to be to me the algorithm which will empirically lead to truest community beliefs.
Most of the juiciest truths will offend someone, and if we allow the truth to be suppressed because it “causes offence”, we will end up with false beliefs.
is a dangerously broad category. For example, one might start downvoting all comments from gender X because we think we need less of that gender because they “contribute negatively”. Or we might start systematically downvoting a particular person even when they make an entirely valid point, because they are “part of a problem” and need to be chased away. No, downvoting should solely be a measure of the degree of accuracy and relevance of a comment to settling the empirical question at hand.
As we become politicized, we will find ways of justifying political actions against people on the “other side”, and having a really broad category like “contribute negatively” will just make it really easy for us to do that. Our brains do all this automatically.
I don’t think most people think that’s what downvotes are for. But that’s been discussed at great length.
Specifically, I’m under the impression downvote means ‘I want to see fewer comments like this’ at its basis, and any other analysis of what it means proceeds from that and our community standards.
ETA: FWIW, Eliezer has agreed
At some point we really do have to enforce community norms to prevent the level of discourse from deteriorating. Antisocial and obnoxious behavior are perfectly valid reasons to downvote a comment, I have a hard time believing you really think they aren’t, and I’m reasonably confident that most of LW is okay with the idea, judging by other comments I’ve seen receive downvotes (not to pick on him, but Annoyance has gotten some of this) for no obvious reason other than tone.
The issues are where to draw the lines, and how to handle it when the community is sharply divded on what constitutes “polite, respectful discussion”. Frankly, the main person I see drawing “us vs. them” lines here is you.
Well I think that if the comment is specifically aimed at being obnoxious, e.g.
Then that should be killed.
But if a comment expresses a true proposition about the world, and the main purpose of the comment is to express that comment, e.g. “blacks are dumber than whites, look at all this data I have, and this list of biases about western culture which shows that we are massively prone to ignore the data” (disclaimer: I do not advocate that position), but as a side effect happens to offend someone, then it should not get deleted.
At least this seems to be to me the algorithm which will empirically lead to truest community beliefs.
Most of the juiciest truths will offend someone, and if we allow the truth to be suppressed because it “causes offence”, we will end up with false beliefs.
This seems utterly obvious to me.