Oh, that’s not true at all. The statement “pleasure is good” has the exact same problem that “suffering is bad” has. It confuses the map for the territory. “The map says good” is only good if reality is good.
Heroin? Pleasurable, but problem.
Antisocial sadism, of the sort experienced by people like Ted Bundy? Problem. Not good.
suffering is bad
Someone did argue that this is potentially untrue, that there exists “voluntary suffering”. I think this is one case where language is a bit inadequate.
It’s way more than that. First, let’s get clear on our terms.
Pain is the signal that we’re getting damaged. Suffering is the internal tension that this can create.
When you stub your toe and flinch away exclaiming “FUCK!”, gritting your teeth, you’re trying to get away from the sensation. Or when a loved one dies and you’re still saying “No! It can’t be!”. You’re fighting against it, and it’s tearing you apart. That’s suffering.
When you stop pushing back and just feel the pain, it’s different. You stub your toe, and don’t tense up in response. It’s just like.. “Wow. This really hurts”. Or when grieving it’s just sadness. There’s a purity to the sadness, and it will look very different on your face. That’s what it feels like to face reality and allow yourself to update on the new and unfortunate evidence. I don’t understand the physiology well enough to say if it’s necessarily going to follow this pattern, but I have noticed that when eating hot peppers my heart rate will go down if I don’t fight against the pain, and up if I do.
The purpose of suffering is that it means we get to fight back. We get to jerk our hands off of the hot stove, instead of sitting there thinking “Ooh, interesting. This is bad”. It means giving CPR for longer even when things are “hopeless”, which may on occasion actually work.
It’s not always clear how to disentangle things such that we will choose to stop fighting the battles that are counterproductive, so you can’t just tell people “Suffering is a choice, stop suffering”, in general. But it is a choice, and if you can understand why they’re choosing to fight reality well enough that you can make visible to them that it’s not the right choice (and not just that they “should conclude” that it’s not the right choice), that actually does resolve suffering even in extreme cases where someone has been in debilitating pain for a year because their nerves are fried. Once you can’t be motivated to fight it, there’s no fight. Pain, and damage, but no suffering.
The question isn’t “Suffering is bad, how to not suffer”, or “Does my map say this suffering is good” which is a question floating untethered from ground level reality.
The question that matters is “Which suffering is worth it”. Or, on the flipside, is this heroin really giving me what I want in life?
To be honest, it probably comes down to something like “I value my own continued existence, and thus end up drawing ethics in a way where this is justified”. So I am probably just being biased here.
Well, yeah. You have to actively seek continued existence, or you will cease to exist shortly. You have to eat, drink, thermoregulate, and otherwise resist entropy. Friston extends this to literally every thing, including drops of oil. And if you predictably act to ensure your existence, that’s what “valuing your existence” is.
But that’s not “bias”, that’s the fundamental physics that grounds our values. Any conception of values that doesn’t pass this basic test won’t be taken seriously for long.
Oh, that’s not true at all. The statement “pleasure is good” has the exact same problem that “suffering is bad” has. It confuses the map for the territory. “The map says good” is only good if reality is good.
Heroin? Pleasurable, but problem.
Antisocial sadism, of the sort experienced by people like Ted Bundy? Problem. Not good.
It’s way more than that. First, let’s get clear on our terms.
Pain is the signal that we’re getting damaged. Suffering is the internal tension that this can create.
When you stub your toe and flinch away exclaiming “FUCK!”, gritting your teeth, you’re trying to get away from the sensation. Or when a loved one dies and you’re still saying “No! It can’t be!”. You’re fighting against it, and it’s tearing you apart. That’s suffering.
When you stop pushing back and just feel the pain, it’s different. You stub your toe, and don’t tense up in response. It’s just like.. “Wow. This really hurts”. Or when grieving it’s just sadness. There’s a purity to the sadness, and it will look very different on your face. That’s what it feels like to face reality and allow yourself to update on the new and unfortunate evidence. I don’t understand the physiology well enough to say if it’s necessarily going to follow this pattern, but I have noticed that when eating hot peppers my heart rate will go down if I don’t fight against the pain, and up if I do.
The purpose of suffering is that it means we get to fight back. We get to jerk our hands off of the hot stove, instead of sitting there thinking “Ooh, interesting. This is bad”. It means giving CPR for longer even when things are “hopeless”, which may on occasion actually work.
It’s not always clear how to disentangle things such that we will choose to stop fighting the battles that are counterproductive, so you can’t just tell people “Suffering is a choice, stop suffering”, in general. But it is a choice, and if you can understand why they’re choosing to fight reality well enough that you can make visible to them that it’s not the right choice (and not just that they “should conclude” that it’s not the right choice), that actually does resolve suffering even in extreme cases where someone has been in debilitating pain for a year because their nerves are fried. Once you can’t be motivated to fight it, there’s no fight. Pain, and damage, but no suffering.
The question isn’t “Suffering is bad, how to not suffer”, or “Does my map say this suffering is good” which is a question floating untethered from ground level reality.
The question that matters is “Which suffering is worth it”. Or, on the flipside, is this heroin really giving me what I want in life?
Well, yeah. You have to actively seek continued existence, or you will cease to exist shortly. You have to eat, drink, thermoregulate, and otherwise resist entropy. Friston extends this to literally every thing, including drops of oil. And if you predictably act to ensure your existence, that’s what “valuing your existence” is.
But that’s not “bias”, that’s the fundamental physics that grounds our values. Any conception of values that doesn’t pass this basic test won’t be taken seriously for long.