To respond briefly, I think that people underinvest in (D), and write sub-par forum posts rather than aim for the degree of clarity that would allow them to do (E) at far less marginal cost. I agree that people overinvest in (B)[1], but also think that it’s very easy to tell yourself your work is “actual progress” when you’re doing work that, if submitted to peer-reviewed outlets, would be quickly demolished as duplicative of work you’re unaware of, or incompletely thought-out in other ways.
I also worry that many people have never written a peer reviewed paper, and aren’t thinking through the tradeoff, they just never develop the necessary skills, and can’t ever move to more academic outlets[2]. I say all of this as someone who routinely writes for both peer-reviewed outlets and for the various forums—my thinking needs to be clearer for reviewed work, and I agree that the extraneous costs are high, but I think that the tradeoff in terms of getting feedback and providing something for others to build on, especially others outside of the narrow EA-motivated community, is often worthwhile.
Edit to add: But yes, I unambiguously endorse starting with writing Arxiv papers, as they get a lot of the benefit without needing to deal with the costs of review. They do fail to get as much feedback, which is a downside. (It’s also relatively easy to put something on Arxiv and submit to a journal for feedback, and decide whether to finish the process after review.)
To be fair, I may be underestimating the costs of learning the skills for those who haven’t done this—but I do think there’s tons of peer mentorship within EA which can work to greatly reduce those costs, if people are willing to use those resources.
I think that the tradeoff in terms of getting feedback and providing something for others to build on, especially others outside of the narrow EA-motivated community, is often worthwhile.
This should be obvious for everyone! As an outside observer and huge sympathizer, it is super-frustrating how siloed the broad EA/rational/AI-alignment/adjacent community is—this specific issue with publication is only one of the consequences. Many of “you people” only interacting between “yourselves” (and I’m not referring to you, Davids), very often even socially. I mean, you guys are trying to do the most good possible, so help others use and leverage on your work! And don’t waste time reinventing what is already common or, at least, what already exists outside. More mixing would also help prevent Leverage-style failures and probably improve what from the outside seems like a very weird and unhealthy “bay area social dynamics” (as put by Kaj here).
I hope you don’t mind if I pop in here. I’ve been following this conversation with considerable interest. I too am an outsider. I’ve been peeking in every now and then for years, but started posting here almost a year ago, more or less, to test the waters. Anyhow, you say:
This should be obvious for everyone! As an outside observer and huge sympathizer, it is super-frustrating how siloed the broad EA/rational/AI-alignment/adjacent community is—this specific issue with publication is only one of the consequences.
Yes! And as you go on to say, it works in both directions too (”...don’t waste time reinventing what is already common...”). There’s breath-taking ignorance of existing work in relevant fields.
For example, around the corner there’s some interesting discussions under the heading of “semiotic physics,” which, as far as I can tell, is the application of complex dynamics to understanding LLMs. Super-important, super-interesting, even to someone like me, who can’t do the math. But the conversations proceed as though no one had ever thought of doing this, which simply is not true. And as far as I can tell, there’s no intention of trying to take this work to the outside world, which is a mistake.
At times it seems like this place is populated by people who think they’re the smartest one in the room, and maybe they were at one time, back in secondary school. But it’s a large world and there are lots of “smartest in the room” people in it. You need to get over it.
To respond briefly, I think that people underinvest in (D), and write sub-par forum posts rather than aim for the degree of clarity that would allow them to do (E) at far less marginal cost. I agree that people overinvest in (B)[1], but also think that it’s very easy to tell yourself your work is “actual progress” when you’re doing work that, if submitted to peer-reviewed outlets, would be quickly demolished as duplicative of work you’re unaware of, or incompletely thought-out in other ways.
I also worry that many people have never written a peer reviewed paper, and aren’t thinking through the tradeoff, they just never develop the necessary skills, and can’t ever move to more academic outlets[2]. I say all of this as someone who routinely writes for both peer-reviewed outlets and for the various forums—my thinking needs to be clearer for reviewed work, and I agree that the extraneous costs are high, but I think that the tradeoff in terms of getting feedback and providing something for others to build on, especially others outside of the narrow EA-motivated community, is often worthwhile.
Edit to add: But yes, I unambiguously endorse starting with writing Arxiv papers, as they get a lot of the benefit without needing to deal with the costs of review. They do fail to get as much feedback, which is a downside. (It’s also relatively easy to put something on Arxiv and submit to a journal for feedback, and decide whether to finish the process after review.)
Though much of that work—reviews, restatements, etc. can be valuable despite that.
To be fair, I may be underestimating the costs of learning the skills for those who haven’t done this—but I do think there’s tons of peer mentorship within EA which can work to greatly reduce those costs, if people are willing to use those resources.
This should be obvious for everyone! As an outside observer and huge sympathizer, it is super-frustrating how siloed the broad EA/rational/AI-alignment/adjacent community is—this specific issue with publication is only one of the consequences. Many of “you people” only interacting between “yourselves” (and I’m not referring to you, Davids), very often even socially. I mean, you guys are trying to do the most good possible, so help others use and leverage on your work! And don’t waste time reinventing what is already common or, at least, what already exists outside. More mixing would also help prevent Leverage-style failures and probably improve what from the outside seems like a very weird and unhealthy “bay area social dynamics” (as put by Kaj here).
I hope you don’t mind if I pop in here. I’ve been following this conversation with considerable interest. I too am an outsider. I’ve been peeking in every now and then for years, but started posting here almost a year ago, more or less, to test the waters. Anyhow, you say:
Yes! And as you go on to say, it works in both directions too (”...don’t waste time reinventing what is already common...”). There’s breath-taking ignorance of existing work in relevant fields.
For example, around the corner there’s some interesting discussions under the heading of “semiotic physics,” which, as far as I can tell, is the application of complex dynamics to understanding LLMs. Super-important, super-interesting, even to someone like me, who can’t do the math. But the conversations proceed as though no one had ever thought of doing this, which simply is not true. And as far as I can tell, there’s no intention of trying to take this work to the outside world, which is a mistake.
At times it seems like this place is populated by people who think they’re the smartest one in the room, and maybe they were at one time, back in secondary school. But it’s a large world and there are lots of “smartest in the room” people in it. You need to get over it.
It’s a waste of intelligence and creativity.
Thanks, agreed. And as an aside, I don’t think it’s entirely coincidental that neither of the people who agree with you are in the Bay.