Arrogance and people pleasing have both been quite central in my life, so this post really resonates with me. But I’m very confident in my understanding of degeneracy, so I want to challenge this thought:
I think of fawning as degenerate submissiveness, and arrogance as degenerate dominance.
I don’t think fawning is degenerate unless one: 1: Discard their own individuality, copying traits of the other person 2: Conforms to group-think in general (rather than fawning over select individuals) 3: Makes no selection.
When fawning, one should like the individual for their uniqueness. Like this, there’s no destruction of individuality, no tendency towards average, no universal standards that all people are measured towards (slave morality comes to mind!).
I don’t think arrogance is degenerate unless: 1: One is arrogant in the sense of bragging, seeking validation from others. 2: One is hostile, rather than just playful. (If you’re hostile, you perceive the other person as a threat. If something is a threat to you, how could you be far above them? But those above like to handicap themselves and taunting others, in order to invite a stronger resistance that they may overcome) 3: Your ego is fragile, and not just big. (a strong personality is the opposite of degeneracy. Recognize health by surplus and degeneracy by poverty)
I’ll claim that some arrogance is the opposite of degeneracy, to the extent that one rejects outside influences due to high personal standards. High-status people may be arrogant and avoid low-status people (master morality comes to mind). If your open-mindedness leads to a lack of standards, then you’re degenerate. This is why slave morality is so dangerous, it subverts values. Two examples which come to mind are open borders and acceptance of deviant sexual behaviour. (These are not inherently bad, but I think they’re bad in practice as we can’t shoulder the cost. Deviancy also correlates with both inferiority and superiority, but that’s a complex topic) I have zero desire to lead personally, I’d rather be among other outliers. Being a leader is costly—but it’s also a virtue. It’s helping people below yourself. I’d probably like the idea if I could derive meaning from it (take pride in giving to others as a proof of abundance). I should also add that I’m afraid of being misunderstood, which probably means that I fear the power of numbers (cancel culture and such) despite looking down on individuals.
Have I misunderstood you on about fawning behaviour? I view it different from mere conformity. What comes to mind for me are lonely people who are quick to idolize whoever treats them well. Another example, one which offends me a bit, is when the moderators or leaders of a group give special statuses to cute girls in the group, competing for their attention. It’s often done in an immature and unprofessional manner, resulting in the girls becoming spoiled, and in moderators punishing anyone who dares to point out the favoritism. Finally, I’m better at acting high status than low status, but my social needs aren’t being met, and it’s exhausting to have other people rely on me all the time. By taking a harmless, cat-like social role, others will let down their guard around me and hold me to low expectations.
I’d love to hear your thoughts! The less you hold back in criticizing my view, the more I benefit.
I think we need to clear up two terms before we can have a coherent dialogue: “fawning” and “degenerate”.
I think I used “degenerate” in a non-standard way. I did not intend to convey “causing a deterioration of your moral character”, but rather “a hollow/misadjusted/corrupted version of”.
I use “fawning” in a technical sense, referring to a trauma response where someone “plays along” in response to stress. This is an instinct targeted at making you appear less threatening, reducing the likelihood of getting disposed of due to retaliation concerns. I did not use it in the sense of “likes someone” (fawn over someone).
Regarding Arrogance, big ego, and master morals:
I am a big fan of:
going my own way, instead of conforming out of envy-fear.
having a strong “sense of self”
knowing what I want and going for it
having standards for my own and other people’s behaviour
taking joy in others celebrating your leadership
I don’t see these things as arrogant.
Here are some arrogant things:
judging others harsher when you get insecure (pushing down to avoid getting dominated)
ignoring my own faults, because I’m not willing to appear weak
thinking I’m worthy of status and fame even if I don’t provide value
pretending that I am more confident/strong than I actually feel, because that feels safer
Arrogance has a “clinginess” to it. It has a pretence to it. It has a presumptuousness to it.
Arrogance is what happens when you value “feeling powerful” (relative to others), over actually getting shit done, using power for the things it’s useful for, and serving something bigger than yourself (such as the community).
I don’t define degeneracy as immorality myself. I’m quite inspired by Nietzsches definition, which is almost the opposite of that. In short, degeneracy is a lack of healthy instincts. Healthy people love freedom, as restrinctions and rules only hinder them. Degenerate people need these rules and restrictions, for without them, they destroy themselves. Substance abusers, alcoholics, porn addicts, etc. are all examples of this. Sex is not bad as some Christians think, neither is it pure good as some progressives think. The degeneracy is in the doer. Sex can be anything from innocent to sickly indulgent. Children think nothing of nudity because they’re pure, perverts think nothing of nudity because it’s way insufficient to excite them. Think of it as the horse-shoe theory of innocence and corruption, and the reason that the concept of “balance” is superior to the good/evil worldview.
I like your definition of “fawning”! I think such playing along happens instinctual (herd instinct), but that many take it too far because of trauma. But normal upbringing/socialization is quite similar to trauma, I think. It’s normal to be afraid of talking publicly, but we’re not born with this fear. Have you read the unabombers description of oversocialization? It’s when socialization is taken further than what’s realistic. It causes all sorts of psychological problems, like suppression of emotions, projecting of ones shadow onto others, and a general fear of healthy human nature (healthy people lack restrictions, and degenerate people consider this a danger. E.g. Christians who are afraid of atheists, because they think “if you don’t believe in hell, won’t you want to hurt other people?” (notice the confession in such thoughts)
I also enjoy “going my own way”, but I will admit that it’s lonely at times. And I have given up trying to explain my moral compass to others, such a thing is almost impossible. I’m easily misunderstood as evil, unless I act happy-go-lucky. You will only be deemed a bad person if you seem to understand the cause and effect of your actions.
I agree with basically everything you’ve listed, but I think you’re inherently worthy of status, you’re just not entitled to it. Even strong self-affirmation is good, even more so if it’s based on nothing (as that makes it impossible to take it away from you). I think entitlement is bad in any amounts, no matter how justified. One should consider oneself valid by default, rather than begging others for validation. Also, considering each day an undeserved gift might be sufficient for living a happy life. Finally, I think serving something bigger than oneself is admirable iff it’s voluntary. Excuse the wordiness, I can’t compress it further.
Arrogance and people pleasing have both been quite central in my life, so this post really resonates with me.
But I’m very confident in my understanding of degeneracy, so I want to challenge this thought:
I don’t think fawning is degenerate unless one:
1: Discard their own individuality, copying traits of the other person
2: Conforms to group-think in general (rather than fawning over select individuals)
3: Makes no selection.
When fawning, one should like the individual for their uniqueness. Like this, there’s no destruction of individuality, no tendency towards average, no universal standards that all people are measured towards (slave morality comes to mind!).
I don’t think arrogance is degenerate unless:
1: One is arrogant in the sense of bragging, seeking validation from others.
2: One is hostile, rather than just playful. (If you’re hostile, you perceive the other person as a threat. If something is a threat to you, how could you be far above them? But those above like to handicap themselves and taunting others, in order to invite a stronger resistance that they may overcome)
3: Your ego is fragile, and not just big. (a strong personality is the opposite of degeneracy. Recognize health by surplus and degeneracy by poverty)
I’ll claim that some arrogance is the opposite of degeneracy, to the extent that one rejects outside influences due to high personal standards. High-status people may be arrogant and avoid low-status people (master morality comes to mind). If your open-mindedness leads to a lack of standards, then you’re degenerate. This is why slave morality is so dangerous, it subverts values. Two examples which come to mind are open borders and acceptance of deviant sexual behaviour. (These are not inherently bad, but I think they’re bad in practice as we can’t shoulder the cost. Deviancy also correlates with both inferiority and superiority, but that’s a complex topic)
I have zero desire to lead personally, I’d rather be among other outliers. Being a leader is costly—but it’s also a virtue. It’s helping people below yourself. I’d probably like the idea if I could derive meaning from it (take pride in giving to others as a proof of abundance). I should also add that I’m afraid of being misunderstood, which probably means that I fear the power of numbers (cancel culture and such) despite looking down on individuals.
Have I misunderstood you on about fawning behaviour? I view it different from mere conformity. What comes to mind for me are lonely people who are quick to idolize whoever treats them well. Another example, one which offends me a bit, is when the moderators or leaders of a group give special statuses to cute girls in the group, competing for their attention. It’s often done in an immature and unprofessional manner, resulting in the girls becoming spoiled, and in moderators punishing anyone who dares to point out the favoritism.
Finally, I’m better at acting high status than low status, but my social needs aren’t being met, and it’s exhausting to have other people rely on me all the time. By taking a harmless, cat-like social role, others will let down their guard around me and hold me to low expectations.
I’d love to hear your thoughts! The less you hold back in criticizing my view, the more I benefit.
I think we need to clear up two terms before we can have a coherent dialogue: “fawning” and “degenerate”.
I think I used “degenerate” in a non-standard way. I did not intend to convey “causing a deterioration of your moral character”, but rather “a hollow/misadjusted/corrupted version of”.
I use “fawning” in a technical sense, referring to a trauma response where someone “plays along” in response to stress. This is an instinct targeted at making you appear less threatening, reducing the likelihood of getting disposed of due to retaliation concerns. I did not use it in the sense of “likes someone” (fawn over someone).
Regarding Arrogance, big ego, and master morals:
I am a big fan of:
going my own way, instead of conforming out of envy-fear.
having a strong “sense of self”
knowing what I want and going for it
having standards for my own and other people’s behaviour
taking joy in others celebrating your leadership
I don’t see these things as arrogant.
Here are some arrogant things:
judging others harsher when you get insecure (pushing down to avoid getting dominated)
ignoring my own faults, because I’m not willing to appear weak
thinking I’m worthy of status and fame even if I don’t provide value
pretending that I am more confident/strong than I actually feel, because that feels safer
Arrogance has a “clinginess” to it. It has a pretence to it. It has a presumptuousness to it. Arrogance is what happens when you value “feeling powerful” (relative to others), over actually getting shit done, using power for the things it’s useful for, and serving something bigger than yourself (such as the community).
I don’t define degeneracy as immorality myself. I’m quite inspired by Nietzsches definition, which is almost the opposite of that.
In short, degeneracy is a lack of healthy instincts. Healthy people love freedom, as restrinctions and rules only hinder them. Degenerate people need these rules and restrictions, for without them, they destroy themselves. Substance abusers, alcoholics, porn addicts, etc. are all examples of this. Sex is not bad as some Christians think, neither is it pure good as some progressives think. The degeneracy is in the doer. Sex can be anything from innocent to sickly indulgent. Children think nothing of nudity because they’re pure, perverts think nothing of nudity because it’s way insufficient to excite them. Think of it as the horse-shoe theory of innocence and corruption, and the reason that the concept of “balance” is superior to the good/evil worldview.
I like your definition of “fawning”! I think such playing along happens instinctual (herd instinct), but that many take it too far because of trauma. But normal upbringing/socialization is quite similar to trauma, I think. It’s normal to be afraid of talking publicly, but we’re not born with this fear. Have you read the unabombers description of oversocialization? It’s when socialization is taken further than what’s realistic. It causes all sorts of psychological problems, like suppression of emotions, projecting of ones shadow onto others, and a general fear of healthy human nature (healthy people lack restrictions, and degenerate people consider this a danger. E.g. Christians who are afraid of atheists, because they think “if you don’t believe in hell, won’t you want to hurt other people?” (notice the confession in such thoughts)
I also enjoy “going my own way”, but I will admit that it’s lonely at times. And I have given up trying to explain my moral compass to others, such a thing is almost impossible. I’m easily misunderstood as evil, unless I act happy-go-lucky. You will only be deemed a bad person if you seem to understand the cause and effect of your actions.
I agree with basically everything you’ve listed, but I think you’re inherently worthy of status, you’re just not entitled to it. Even strong self-affirmation is good, even more so if it’s based on nothing (as that makes it impossible to take it away from you). I think entitlement is bad in any amounts, no matter how justified. One should consider oneself valid by default, rather than begging others for validation. Also, considering each day an undeserved gift might be sufficient for living a happy life.
Finally, I think serving something bigger than oneself is admirable iff it’s voluntary. Excuse the wordiness, I can’t compress it further.