That’s basically right, but I’d like to expand a bit.
Most people are fairly easily convinced “by argument” unless they have a status incentive to not agree. The problems here are that 1) people very often have status reasons to disagree, and 2) people are usually so bad at reasoning that you can find an argument to convince them of anything in absence of the first problem. It’s not quite that they don’t “care” about logical inconsistencies, but rather that they are bad at finding them because they don’t build concrete models and its easy enough to find a path where they don’t find an objection. (note that when you point them out, they have status incentives to not listen and it’ll come across that they don’t care—they just care less than the status loss they’d perceive)
People that I have the most productive conversations with are good at reasoning, but more importantly, when faced with a choice to interpret something as a status attack or a helpful correction, they perceive their status raising move as keeping peace and learning if at all possible. They also try to frame their own arguments in ways to minimize perceived status threat enough that their conversation partner will interpret it as helpful. This way, productive conversation can be a stable equilibrium in presence of status drives.
However, unilaterally adopting this strategy doesn’t always work. If you are on the blunt side of the spectrum, the other party can feel threatened enough to make discussion impossible even backing up n meta levels. If you’re on the walking on eggshells side, the other party can interpret it as allowing them to take the status high ground, give bad arguments and dismiss your arguments. Going to more extreme efforts not to project status threats only makes the problem worse, as (in combination with not taking offense) it is interpreted as submission. It’s like unconditional cooperation. (this appears to be exactly what is happening with the Muelhauser-Goertzel dialog, by the way—though the bitterness hints that he still perceives SIAI as a threat—just a threat he is winning a battle with).
I have a few thoughts on potential solutions (and have had some apparent success), but they aren’t well developed enough to be worth sharing yet.
So yes, all the real work is done in manipulating perceptions of status, but it’s more complicated than “be high status”—it’s getting them to buy into the frame where they are higher status when they agree—or at least don’t lose status.
That’s basically right, but I’d like to expand a bit.
Most people are fairly easily convinced “by argument” unless they have a status incentive to not agree. The problems here are that 1) people very often have status reasons to disagree, and 2) people are usually so bad at reasoning that you can find an argument to convince them of anything in absence of the first problem. It’s not quite that they don’t “care” about logical inconsistencies, but rather that they are bad at finding them because they don’t build concrete models and its easy enough to find a path where they don’t find an objection. (note that when you point them out, they have status incentives to not listen and it’ll come across that they don’t care—they just care less than the status loss they’d perceive)
People that I have the most productive conversations with are good at reasoning, but more importantly, when faced with a choice to interpret something as a status attack or a helpful correction, they perceive their status raising move as keeping peace and learning if at all possible. They also try to frame their own arguments in ways to minimize perceived status threat enough that their conversation partner will interpret it as helpful. This way, productive conversation can be a stable equilibrium in presence of status drives.
However, unilaterally adopting this strategy doesn’t always work. If you are on the blunt side of the spectrum, the other party can feel threatened enough to make discussion impossible even backing up n meta levels. If you’re on the walking on eggshells side, the other party can interpret it as allowing them to take the status high ground, give bad arguments and dismiss your arguments. Going to more extreme efforts not to project status threats only makes the problem worse, as (in combination with not taking offense) it is interpreted as submission. It’s like unconditional cooperation. (this appears to be exactly what is happening with the Muelhauser-Goertzel dialog, by the way—though the bitterness hints that he still perceives SIAI as a threat—just a threat he is winning a battle with).
I have a few thoughts on potential solutions (and have had some apparent success), but they aren’t well developed enough to be worth sharing yet.
So yes, all the real work is done in manipulating perceptions of status, but it’s more complicated than “be high status”—it’s getting them to buy into the frame where they are higher status when they agree—or at least don’t lose status.
I fully agree in the context of longer interactions or multiple interactions.