I am definitely somewhat competitive, if only for instrumental reasons. A billion dollars is my hands is worth much much more than it being in my friends hands where I beg them to please go fund pet projects X Y and Z. There are already multiple EA-influenced billionaires who don’t exactly get along with each other.
My likely failure to be competitive enough is more around, well how hard am I willing to actually work to make a billion dollars, rather than being uncertain whether I should want a billion dollars in the first place.
(And if there were 100 clones of me roaming around Earth right now but some of them were much more hard working, plus throw in some RNG-sampled personality traits that are small deltas away from mine, then holy shit, the world could be a scary place right now. This worries me and is also a “vibes” based reason I am afraid to start projects without thinking it through a lot. )
But I understand you choosing to be cooperative instead.
But I understand you choosing to be cooperative instead.
From inside it doesn’t feel like much of a choice. We are what we are, and I suspect that our reasoning and ethics are mostly post-hoc justifications for doing what we wanted to do anyway.
(You can choose which personality traits you practice, and what kind of people you hang out with, and both of that will change you, but I suspect that these changes are relatively small and impermanent. At least I keep finding myself revert to my old values years and decades later.)
I am a natural born cooperator. (Too bad I am not also extraverted; that could be a powerful combination, I think.) I can compete, and I had some big individual wins, but in long term it makes me tired, mentally. Contributing to other people’s projects gives me emotional energy; it is the combination of “doing something useful” and “not being ultimately responsible” that stimulates my creativity. Overcoming adversity, on the other hand, just makes me feel “I am happy that I did it anyway, but it was horrible and I am so happy that the game is finally over”. (Some people say they value success more when they had to overcome obstacles. In my math, value = success minus obstacles. You know, like “profit = income minus expenses”, not plus.)
I translate other people’s books, but don’t write my own; I comment on other people’s blogs, while my own blog only gets one or two articles a year. I am not making any sacrifices or exercising any self-control to cooperate—from my perspective, I am choosing the easy way.
And when I look at other people, I am usually surprised how little they cooperate; it seems like there are tons of unpicked low-hanging fruit that people ignore, because if they can’t grab the whole pie, they would rather let the world burn. It sometimes feels like I am already too cynical, and then again I learn that I was still too optimistic. (It’s like learning that sometimes people kill others for money. You think this makes you understand the dark side of human nature. And then you learn that someone murdered someone for $10, and you go WTF, because you assumed that “money” refers to maybe millions, not this little. Like, WTF, if someone asked me nicely for $10, there is a chance I would give them, so why would anyone kill a human being for that? And then you think that now you finally understand the dark side of human nature… until the next day you learn that someone else killed a whole group of people for mere 10 cents. I am exaggerating here, but this is how the world sometimes looks from my perspective.)
100 clones of me would probably form a cult, start optimizing the neighborhood and gradually the rest of the universe, and… dunno, probably would have some systemic weakness that would ruin them, otherwise evolution would already make more people like that, I suppose.
But this is the natural, easy way for me, and it wouldn’t work for others. We play with the cards we were dealt. What makes you happy and full of energy is probably the right way for you. (Plus some learning, of course. Each strategy can be played with lesser or greater skill. And everyone better learn about their weaknesses and how to compensate for them.)
(You can choose which personality traits you practice, and what kind of people you hang out with, and both of that will change you, but I suspect that these changes are relatively small and impermanent. At least I keep finding myself revert to my old values years and decades later.)
This seems extremely important if true. If this were true about my values I would love to know about it today rather than make years of painful failed attempts at self-modification. It is something I wonder but don’t have good answers to.
(It’s also relevant to other people confused about their values, and to the question of how do you design a good society where everyone has conflicting values)
Have you considered writing up your evidence for this somewhere? I want to know more.
I am exaggerating here, but this is how the world sometimes looks from my perspective.
I would also like to read more about this. Maybe we already agree, or maybe I am also missing lots of low hanging fruit that you can see.
Overcoming adversity, on the other hand, just makes me feel “I am happy that I did it anyway, but it was horrible and I am so happy that the game is finally over”.
I think nearly everyone trying to do something big accepts a bunch of short term suffering in return for achieving their goal in the long term.
Even the people who claim to like adversity, it’s probably more like building muscles, lifting weights is still painful but the stronger body and increased discipline at the end is worth it. Here it’s an upgrade to your resources or skills.
I understand if you’re saying something like—the pain is larger for you, or you don’t have long term goals with big enough upsides that make the pain worth tolerating.
I love this comment.
I am definitely somewhat competitive, if only for instrumental reasons. A billion dollars is my hands is worth much much more than it being in my friends hands where I beg them to please go fund pet projects X Y and Z. There are already multiple EA-influenced billionaires who don’t exactly get along with each other.
My likely failure to be competitive enough is more around, well how hard am I willing to actually work to make a billion dollars, rather than being uncertain whether I should want a billion dollars in the first place.
(And if there were 100 clones of me roaming around Earth right now but some of them were much more hard working, plus throw in some RNG-sampled personality traits that are small deltas away from mine, then holy shit, the world could be a scary place right now. This worries me and is also a “vibes” based reason I am afraid to start projects without thinking it through a lot. )
But I understand you choosing to be cooperative instead.
From inside it doesn’t feel like much of a choice. We are what we are, and I suspect that our reasoning and ethics are mostly post-hoc justifications for doing what we wanted to do anyway.
(You can choose which personality traits you practice, and what kind of people you hang out with, and both of that will change you, but I suspect that these changes are relatively small and impermanent. At least I keep finding myself revert to my old values years and decades later.)
I am a natural born cooperator. (Too bad I am not also extraverted; that could be a powerful combination, I think.) I can compete, and I had some big individual wins, but in long term it makes me tired, mentally. Contributing to other people’s projects gives me emotional energy; it is the combination of “doing something useful” and “not being ultimately responsible” that stimulates my creativity. Overcoming adversity, on the other hand, just makes me feel “I am happy that I did it anyway, but it was horrible and I am so happy that the game is finally over”. (Some people say they value success more when they had to overcome obstacles. In my math, value = success minus obstacles. You know, like “profit = income minus expenses”, not plus.)
I translate other people’s books, but don’t write my own; I comment on other people’s blogs, while my own blog only gets one or two articles a year. I am not making any sacrifices or exercising any self-control to cooperate—from my perspective, I am choosing the easy way.
And when I look at other people, I am usually surprised how little they cooperate; it seems like there are tons of unpicked low-hanging fruit that people ignore, because if they can’t grab the whole pie, they would rather let the world burn. It sometimes feels like I am already too cynical, and then again I learn that I was still too optimistic. (It’s like learning that sometimes people kill others for money. You think this makes you understand the dark side of human nature. And then you learn that someone murdered someone for $10, and you go WTF, because you assumed that “money” refers to maybe millions, not this little. Like, WTF, if someone asked me nicely for $10, there is a chance I would give them, so why would anyone kill a human being for that? And then you think that now you finally understand the dark side of human nature… until the next day you learn that someone else killed a whole group of people for mere 10 cents. I am exaggerating here, but this is how the world sometimes looks from my perspective.)
100 clones of me would probably form a cult, start optimizing the neighborhood and gradually the rest of the universe, and… dunno, probably would have some systemic weakness that would ruin them, otherwise evolution would already make more people like that, I suppose.
But this is the natural, easy way for me, and it wouldn’t work for others. We play with the cards we were dealt. What makes you happy and full of energy is probably the right way for you. (Plus some learning, of course. Each strategy can be played with lesser or greater skill. And everyone better learn about their weaknesses and how to compensate for them.)
Thank you for this reply.
This seems extremely important if true. If this were true about my values I would love to know about it today rather than make years of painful failed attempts at self-modification. It is something I wonder but don’t have good answers to.
(It’s also relevant to other people confused about their values, and to the question of how do you design a good society where everyone has conflicting values)
Have you considered writing up your evidence for this somewhere? I want to know more.
I would also like to read more about this. Maybe we already agree, or maybe I am also missing lots of low hanging fruit that you can see.
I think nearly everyone trying to do something big accepts a bunch of short term suffering in return for achieving their goal in the long term.
Even the people who claim to like adversity, it’s probably more like building muscles, lifting weights is still painful but the stronger body and increased discipline at the end is worth it. Here it’s an upgrade to your resources or skills.
I understand if you’re saying something like—the pain is larger for you, or you don’t have long term goals with big enough upsides that make the pain worth tolerating.