This characterizes leftists sufficiently dishonestly that I think you’ve gotten mindkilled by politics. As people keep removing my (entirely accurate and if anything understated) soldier-mindset reacts, I will strong-downvote instead :)
Wanted to revisit this because it seemed like one of the points where people most strongly disagreed with me. I’m trying to figure out a crux here. One might be something like: how widespread were celebrations of the 10⁄7 attacks amongst prominent leftists (and especially the student groups that later organized encampments)? I could imagine updating that there were only a handful of cases that disproportionately blew up, which would make me take back or at least caveat the “supports Hamas” thing.
If you on the other hand found that there were many cases where prominent leftists and encampment organizers actively celebrated the 10⁄7 attacks, would you (@dirk or @lc) then agree that “supports Hamas” is a reasonable summary?
I am not one of the tagged people but I certainly would not so agree. One reason I would not so agree is because I have talked to leftist people (prominence debatable) who celebrated the 10⁄7 attacks, and when I asked them whether they support Hamas, they were coherently able to answer “no, but I support armed resistance against Israel and don’t generally condemn actions that fall in that category, even when I don’t approve of or condone the group organizing those actions generally.” One way to know what people believe and support is to ask them. (Of course, I don’t think this is a morally acceptable position either, and conversation ensued! But it’s clearly not “supporting Hamas” in any sense that can support your original claims.)
My social circles also include many leftists, including student organizers and somewhat well-known online figures, so I separately suspect that you’re vastly overestimating the proportion of self-identified leftists who celebrated the attacks in any meaningful sense, but that’s probably not the crux here.
This characterizes leftists sufficiently dishonestly that I think you’ve gotten mindkilled by politics. As people keep removing my (entirely accurate and if anything understated) soldier-mindset reacts, I will strong-downvote instead :)
Wanted to revisit this because it seemed like one of the points where people most strongly disagreed with me. I’m trying to figure out a crux here. One might be something like: how widespread were celebrations of the 10⁄7 attacks amongst prominent leftists (and especially the student groups that later organized encampments)? I could imagine updating that there were only a handful of cases that disproportionately blew up, which would make me take back or at least caveat the “supports Hamas” thing.
If you on the other hand found that there were many cases where prominent leftists and encampment organizers actively celebrated the 10⁄7 attacks, would you (@dirk or @lc) then agree that “supports Hamas” is a reasonable summary?
I am not one of the tagged people but I certainly would not so agree. One reason I would not so agree is because I have talked to leftist people (prominence debatable) who celebrated the 10⁄7 attacks, and when I asked them whether they support Hamas, they were coherently able to answer “no, but I support armed resistance against Israel and don’t generally condemn actions that fall in that category, even when I don’t approve of or condone the group organizing those actions generally.” One way to know what people believe and support is to ask them. (Of course, I don’t think this is a morally acceptable position either, and conversation ensued! But it’s clearly not “supporting Hamas” in any sense that can support your original claims.)
My social circles also include many leftists, including student organizers and somewhat well-known online figures, so I separately suspect that you’re vastly overestimating the proportion of self-identified leftists who celebrated the attacks in any meaningful sense, but that’s probably not the crux here.