An additional question: Are there any resources on this site for resolving issues with ho a person approached rationality? I’m asking because I came to this site looking for a way to improve my thinking and avoid self-sabotaging behaviors, and I think I may have carried several unsavory mental artifacts along in the proces of forming that association that are preventing me from getting the most out of this site.
Sadly, rationality does not cure “mental artifacts”, since those are largely subconscious and very resistant to introspection and logicking out. A good therapist is indispensable, as they are able to see what we ourselves miss, and to present it in a way that is both convincing and palatable. Sometimes a friend who is skilled in active listening, without an urge of giving “helpful” advice, like “you should do X” can be similarly indispensable.
I agree with the therapist and active-listening friends suggestions, but disagree pretty strongly with the “rationality does not cure mental artifacts” statement.
That may have been the case (or often the case) 10 years ago, but CFAR-style applied rationality (in particular techniques like focusing and internal double crux) is often about figuring out how to introspect usefully. Usually by actually engaging with what the mental artifacts were trying to accomplish in the first place, and finding an alternate way to accomplish those goals.
(“bludgeoning mental artifacts that you think are bad with logic” indeed generally does not work. I think you might conceptualize CFAR-style techniques as “being able to do active listening on yourself without telling yourself ‘you should do X’”)
Your mileage still varies, of course. Different mental issues benefit from different approaches.
I hear often that CFAR has made significant strides toward useful introspection and self-modification, and I have read some of the few publicly accessible materials, including a post on internal double crux, and I can understand the rationale behind them, but did not find them as useful as advertised, either to myself or to those I try to help get better. Maybe it’s significantly different in an actual intensive program or in a group setting, as is usually the case for other forms of therapy, like ACT/DBT/CBT.
Nod. There is a reason that CFAR’s stance is something like “if you’ve been to CFAR, it’s encouraged to teach other people them if you yourself have been to CFAR, but be aware that teaching them is quite hard, and reading up on the techniques on your own is probably not helpful”. There’s a lot of subtle things to get wrong which are easier to catch if you are interacting in realtime with a real human.
FWIW, I think the most relevant skill here is Focusing (at least, that’s the one that most literally is “actively listening to yourself”), which wasn’t invented by CFAR, and the audiobook for it is pretty good.
Thank you kindly!
An additional question: Are there any resources on this site for resolving issues with ho a person approached rationality? I’m asking because I came to this site looking for a way to improve my thinking and avoid self-sabotaging behaviors, and I think I may have carried several unsavory mental artifacts along in the proces of forming that association that are preventing me from getting the most out of this site.
Sadly, rationality does not cure “mental artifacts”, since those are largely subconscious and very resistant to introspection and logicking out. A good therapist is indispensable, as they are able to see what we ourselves miss, and to present it in a way that is both convincing and palatable. Sometimes a friend who is skilled in active listening, without an urge of giving “helpful” advice, like “you should do X” can be similarly indispensable.
I agree with the therapist and active-listening friends suggestions, but disagree pretty strongly with the “rationality does not cure mental artifacts” statement.
That may have been the case (or often the case) 10 years ago, but CFAR-style applied rationality (in particular techniques like focusing and internal double crux) is often about figuring out how to introspect usefully. Usually by actually engaging with what the mental artifacts were trying to accomplish in the first place, and finding an alternate way to accomplish those goals.
(“bludgeoning mental artifacts that you think are bad with logic” indeed generally does not work. I think you might conceptualize CFAR-style techniques as “being able to do active listening on yourself without telling yourself ‘you should do X’”)
Your mileage still varies, of course. Different mental issues benefit from different approaches.
I hear often that CFAR has made significant strides toward useful introspection and self-modification, and I have read some of the few publicly accessible materials, including a post on internal double crux, and I can understand the rationale behind them, but did not find them as useful as advertised, either to myself or to those I try to help get better. Maybe it’s significantly different in an actual intensive program or in a group setting, as is usually the case for other forms of therapy, like ACT/DBT/CBT.
Nod. There is a reason that CFAR’s stance is something like “if you’ve been to CFAR, it’s encouraged to teach other people them if you yourself have been to CFAR, but be aware that teaching them is quite hard, and reading up on the techniques on your own is probably not helpful”. There’s a lot of subtle things to get wrong which are easier to catch if you are interacting in realtime with a real human.
FWIW, I think the most relevant skill here is Focusing (at least, that’s the one that most literally is “actively listening to yourself”), which wasn’t invented by CFAR, and the audiobook for it is pretty good.