Not what I would consider a decent human life, personally
Only looking at the worst parts of life in the lowest possible bar for how we could reasonably treat people on the most unfavorable edge of a widely cast net of what someone with 60 IQ is like is not really a good standard for determining who lives a decent life. But yes, I do consider chimpanzees to have a decent enough life as is.
But I think that you’re losing sight of my point that these arguments have all served to commit mass murder on people with much lower mental abilities than the average human. When the average human with a say in these matters changes, they could bring the same argument to bear against including 100 IQ humans.
Because there are plenty of examples of 100 IQ humans treating each other horribly because they’re idiots. There are 100 IQ people that have cut other people’s genitals off, thrown acid in thier faces, disfigured or tortured them, ones that have intentionally reduced their lifespans by decades through stupidity, ones that can’t keep themselves standing because they specialized into a job that is now automated, etc. Without 120 IQ humans propping them up they would probably not have the technology to prevent the way they raise their children to be a human rights violation.
But I think that you’re losing sight of my point that these arguments have all served to commit mass murder on people with much lower mental abilities than the average human.
If this is the “point,” then your comment reduces to an invalid appeal-to-consequences argument. The fact that some people use an argument for morally evil purposes tells us nothing about the logical validity of that argument. After all, Evil can make use of truth (sometimes selectively) just as easily as Good can; we don’t live in a fairy tale where trade-offs between Good and Truth are inexistent. The asymmetry is between Truth and Falsehood, not between Good and Evil.
As far as I can tell, gwern’s point is entirely correct, completely invalidates your entire previous comment (“I would expect you to already know that chimpanzees have an IQ lower than 60 and are capable of taking care of themselves and having a decent life.”), and you did not address it at all in your follow-up.
Only looking at the worst parts of life in the lowest possible bar for how we could reasonably treat people on the most unfavorable edge of a widely cast net of what someone with 60 IQ is like is not really a good standard for determining who lives a decent life. But yes, I do consider chimpanzees to have a decent enough life as is.
But I think that you’re losing sight of my point that these arguments have all served to commit mass murder on people with much lower mental abilities than the average human. When the average human with a say in these matters changes, they could bring the same argument to bear against including 100 IQ humans.
Because there are plenty of examples of 100 IQ humans treating each other horribly because they’re idiots. There are 100 IQ people that have cut other people’s genitals off, thrown acid in thier faces, disfigured or tortured them, ones that have intentionally reduced their lifespans by decades through stupidity, ones that can’t keep themselves standing because they specialized into a job that is now automated, etc. Without 120 IQ humans propping them up they would probably not have the technology to prevent the way they raise their children to be a human rights violation.
So where is the line in the sand?
If this is the “point,” then your comment reduces to an invalid appeal-to-consequences argument. The fact that some people use an argument for morally evil purposes tells us nothing about the logical validity of that argument. After all, Evil can make use of truth (sometimes selectively) just as easily as Good can; we don’t live in a fairy tale where trade-offs between Good and Truth are inexistent. The asymmetry is between Truth and Falsehood, not between Good and Evil.
As far as I can tell, gwern’s point is entirely correct, completely invalidates your entire previous comment (“I would expect you to already know that chimpanzees have an IQ lower than 60 and are capable of taking care of themselves and having a decent life.”), and you did not address it at all in your follow-up.