The details of the function chosen as an example are pretty gratuitous. Couldn’t we just have made it about food, or something?
(And not just the example—some of the comments! This is what you call rational? What goes on here? They’re pretty entertaining though.)
I didn’t cherry pick this example after combing through many. It’s one of the first and few things I’ve read here so far.
And I have noticed some people here think being offended is, without exception, A Bad Thing. But I also noticed that there isn’t consensus on this point. So the question of whether or not it is irrational remains open. I would concede that it’s useful to avoid being offended as much as possible, but there are obviously limits to this.
Anyway, the relevant question here isn’t, “Is it wrong to be offended?” but, “Will reasonable and intelligent people who are new visitors to LW be potentially discouraged by examples like this?” I think the answer is yes. It’s perhaps worth finding the time to use more gender-neutral examples in your posts.
Footnote: The reason this is discouraging is because it sends the message that the author and his community view men as intellectual peers and women as things for looking at and fucking. I’d rather be places where I am an intellectual peer though. I thought this was a really nice, relevant discussion: http://lesswrong.com/lw/4vj/a_rationalists_account_of_objectification/
Will reasonable and intelligent people who are new visitors to LW be potentially discouraged by examples like this?
Would they be discouraged more or less if instead they found a website with completely abstract and unspecific examples (to avoid offending anyone, because some people are sensitive about food)? How about a website with no articles at all? Perfect is the enemy of good.
Or, from a different angle: Would some other reasonable and intelligent people be discouraged by a website with strict self-censorship norms?
You can’t make everyone happy. There is always a trade-off. Whatever choice you make, someone will always criticize you for making it. (Then you might optimize for people who are most loud about their dislikes; but they are probably the people who would dislike you anyway, so that would probably be a bad choice.)
I’d rather be places where I am an intellectual peer though.
Uh, this will be offensive, but I don’t know how to express it otherwise: If you want to be treated as an adult person, then behave like an adult person; and not whining is a good way to do that!
If someone has a problem to read an example using sexiness as a 2-place word, then I have a problem to consider them my intellectual peer. I could probably make the person happy by treating them like a child and walking on my toe tips around them… but that certainly is not like I behave towards my peers.
If someone has a problem to read an example using sexiness as a 2-place word, then I have a problem to consider them my intellectual peer
How confident are you that none of the people you unproblematically consider your intellectual peers also find it offputting to choose agents as illustrative objects of desire in contexts where their agency is irrelevant, and simply don’t articulate that judgment in public?
Any evidence can be countered by other evidence. If the only information I have about someone is that they have this taboo against perceiving agents as something else than disembodied minds, my estimates would be rather low. But of course, add other information to the picture, and the results may change.
If the only information I have about someone is that they [react in this way] my estimates would be rather low. But of course, add other information to the picture, and the results may change.
And I have noticed some people here think being offended is, without exception, A Bad Thing. But I also noticed that there isn’t consensus on this point. So the question of whether or not it is irrational remains open. I would concede that it’s useful to avoid being offended as much as possible, but there are obviously limits to this.
A comrade agrees. Generally, I’m not quite certain where I stand myself, but quite certain that the mean (pardon the pun) LW reaction to people signaling “offense” is arrogant, privileged and sanctimonous—not to mention treating “offense” as a one-place word, etc.
I’ve never liked the word “privilege” to describe this problem, but there is definitely something to this. Compare the modal reaction on Lesswrong between someone saying something plausibly offensive about women or blacks to the modal reaction to, Omega forfend, someone suggesting that autistic people might actually be inferior in some ways to neurotypical individuals.
It appears to matter quite a bit whose ox is getting gored.
I can only speak for myself, but the example used in this post decreased the affinity I feel for LW:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ro/2place_and_1place_words/
The details of the function chosen as an example are pretty gratuitous. Couldn’t we just have made it about food, or something?
(And not just the example—some of the comments! This is what you call rational? What goes on here? They’re pretty entertaining though.)
I didn’t cherry pick this example after combing through many. It’s one of the first and few things I’ve read here so far.
And I have noticed some people here think being offended is, without exception, A Bad Thing. But I also noticed that there isn’t consensus on this point. So the question of whether or not it is irrational remains open. I would concede that it’s useful to avoid being offended as much as possible, but there are obviously limits to this.
Anyway, the relevant question here isn’t, “Is it wrong to be offended?” but, “Will reasonable and intelligent people who are new visitors to LW be potentially discouraged by examples like this?” I think the answer is yes. It’s perhaps worth finding the time to use more gender-neutral examples in your posts.
Footnote: The reason this is discouraging is because it sends the message that the author and his community view men as intellectual peers and women as things for looking at and fucking. I’d rather be places where I am an intellectual peer though. I thought this was a really nice, relevant discussion: http://lesswrong.com/lw/4vj/a_rationalists_account_of_objectification/
Would they be discouraged more or less if instead they found a website with completely abstract and unspecific examples (to avoid offending anyone, because some people are sensitive about food)? How about a website with no articles at all? Perfect is the enemy of good.
Or, from a different angle: Would some other reasonable and intelligent people be discouraged by a website with strict self-censorship norms?
You can’t make everyone happy. There is always a trade-off. Whatever choice you make, someone will always criticize you for making it. (Then you might optimize for people who are most loud about their dislikes; but they are probably the people who would dislike you anyway, so that would probably be a bad choice.)
Uh, this will be offensive, but I don’t know how to express it otherwise: If you want to be treated as an adult person, then behave like an adult person; and not whining is a good way to do that!
If someone has a problem to read an example using sexiness as a 2-place word, then I have a problem to consider them my intellectual peer. I could probably make the person happy by treating them like a child and walking on my toe tips around them… but that certainly is not like I behave towards my peers.
How confident are you that none of the people you unproblematically consider your intellectual peers also find it offputting to choose agents as illustrative objects of desire in contexts where their agency is irrelevant, and simply don’t articulate that judgment in public?
Any evidence can be countered by other evidence. If the only information I have about someone is that they have this taboo against perceiving agents as something else than disembodied minds, my estimates would be rather low. But of course, add other information to the picture, and the results may change.
(nods) Fair enough.
A comrade agrees. Generally, I’m not quite certain where I stand myself, but quite certain that the mean (pardon the pun) LW reaction to people signaling “offense” is arrogant, privileged and sanctimonous—not to mention treating “offense” as a one-place word, etc.
I’ve never liked the word “privilege” to describe this problem, but there is definitely something to this. Compare the modal reaction on Lesswrong between someone saying something plausibly offensive about women or blacks to the modal reaction to, Omega forfend, someone suggesting that autistic people might actually be inferior in some ways to neurotypical individuals.
It appears to matter quite a bit whose ox is getting gored.