Wow, this got longer than I expected. Hopefully it is an opportunity to grok the perspective I’m coming from a lot better, which is why I’m trying a bunch of different approaches. I do hope this helps, and helps appreciate why a lot of the stuff going on lately has been so worrying to some of us.
Anyway, I still have to give a response to Ray’s comment, so here goes.
Agree with his (1) that it comes across as politics-in-a-bad-way, but disagree that this is due to the simulacrum level, except insofar as the simulacrum level causes us to demand sickeningly political statements. I think it’s because that answer is sickeningly political! It’s saying “First, let me pay tribute to those who assume the title of Doer of Good or Participant in Nonprofit, whose status we can never lower and must only raise. Truly they are the worthy ones among us who always hold the best of intentions. Now, my lords, may I petition the King to notice that your Doers of Good seem to be slaughtering people out there in the name of the faith and kingdom, and perhaps ask politely, in light of the following evidence that they’re slaughtering all these people, that you consider having them do less of that?”
I mean, that’s not fair. But it’s also not all that unfair, either.
(2) we strongly agree.
Pacifists who say “we should disband the military” may or may not be making the mistake of not appreciating the military—they may appreciate it but also think it has big downsides or is no longer needed. And while I currently think the answer is “a lot,” I don’t know to what extent the military should be appreciated.
As for appreciation of people’s efforts, I appreciate the core fact of effort of any kind, towards anything at all, as something we don’t have enough of, and which is generally good. But if that effort is an effort towards things I dislike, especially things that are in bad faith, then it would be weird to say I appreciated that particular effort. There are times I very much don’t appreciate it. And I think that some major causes and central actions in our sphere are in fact doing harm, and those engaged in them are engaging in them in bad faith and have largely abandoned the founding principles of the sphere. I won’t name them in print, but might in conversation.
So I don’t think there’s a missing mood, exactly. But even if there was, and I did appreciate that, there is something about just about everyone I appreciate, and things about them I don’t, and I don’t see why I’m reiterating things ‘everybody knows’ are praiseworthy, as praiseworthy, as a sacred incantation before I am permitted to petition the King with information.
That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t reward people who tried to do something real, with good intentions, more often than I would be inclined not to. Original proposal #1 is sickeningly political. Original proposal #2 is also sickeningly political. Original proposal #3 will almost always be better than both of them. That does not preclude it being wise to often do something between #1 and #3 (#1 gives maybe 60% of its space to genuflections, #2 gives maybe 70% of its space to insults, #3 gives 0% to either, and I think my default would be more like 10% to genuflections if I thought intentions were mostly good?).
But much better would be that pointing out that someone was in fact doing harm would not be seen as punishment, if they stop when this is pointed out. In the world in which doing things is appreciated and rewarded, saying “I see you trying to do a thing! I think it’s harmful and you should stop.” and you saying “oops!” should net you points without me having to say “POINTS!”
But much better would be that pointing out that someone was in fact doing harm would not be seen as punishment, if they stop when this is pointed out. In the world in which doing things is appreciated and rewarded, saying “I see you trying to do a thing! I think it’s harmful and you should stop.” and you saying “oops!” should net you points without me having to say “POINTS!”
Huh. I think part of what’s bothering me here is that I’m reading requests to award points (on the assumption that otherwise people will assign credit perversely) as declaring intent to punish me if I publicly change my mind in a way that’s not savvy to this game, insofar as implying that perverse norms are an unchangeable fait accompli strengthens those norms.
Ah. That’s my bad for conflating my mental concept of “POINTS!” (a reference mostly to the former At Midnight show, which I’ve generalized) with points in the form of Karma points. I think of generic ‘points’ as the vague mental accounting people do with respect to others by default. When I say I shouldn’t have to say ‘points’ I meant that I shouldn’t have to say words, but I certainly also meant I shouldn’t have to literally give you actual points!
And yeah, the whole metaphor is already a sign that things are not where we’d like them to be.
I didn’t think I was disagreeing with you—I meant to refer to the process of publicly explicitly awarding points to offset the implied reputational damage
(5) Splitting for threading.
Wow, this got longer than I expected. Hopefully it is an opportunity to grok the perspective I’m coming from a lot better, which is why I’m trying a bunch of different approaches. I do hope this helps, and helps appreciate why a lot of the stuff going on lately has been so worrying to some of us.
Anyway, I still have to give a response to Ray’s comment, so here goes.
Agree with his (1) that it comes across as politics-in-a-bad-way, but disagree that this is due to the simulacrum level, except insofar as the simulacrum level causes us to demand sickeningly political statements. I think it’s because that answer is sickeningly political! It’s saying “First, let me pay tribute to those who assume the title of Doer of Good or Participant in Nonprofit, whose status we can never lower and must only raise. Truly they are the worthy ones among us who always hold the best of intentions. Now, my lords, may I petition the King to notice that your Doers of Good seem to be slaughtering people out there in the name of the faith and kingdom, and perhaps ask politely, in light of the following evidence that they’re slaughtering all these people, that you consider having them do less of that?”
I mean, that’s not fair. But it’s also not all that unfair, either.
(2) we strongly agree.
Pacifists who say “we should disband the military” may or may not be making the mistake of not appreciating the military—they may appreciate it but also think it has big downsides or is no longer needed. And while I currently think the answer is “a lot,” I don’t know to what extent the military should be appreciated.
As for appreciation of people’s efforts, I appreciate the core fact of effort of any kind, towards anything at all, as something we don’t have enough of, and which is generally good. But if that effort is an effort towards things I dislike, especially things that are in bad faith, then it would be weird to say I appreciated that particular effort. There are times I very much don’t appreciate it. And I think that some major causes and central actions in our sphere are in fact doing harm, and those engaged in them are engaging in them in bad faith and have largely abandoned the founding principles of the sphere. I won’t name them in print, but might in conversation.
So I don’t think there’s a missing mood, exactly. But even if there was, and I did appreciate that, there is something about just about everyone I appreciate, and things about them I don’t, and I don’t see why I’m reiterating things ‘everybody knows’ are praiseworthy, as praiseworthy, as a sacred incantation before I am permitted to petition the King with information.
That doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t reward people who tried to do something real, with good intentions, more often than I would be inclined not to. Original proposal #1 is sickeningly political. Original proposal #2 is also sickeningly political. Original proposal #3 will almost always be better than both of them. That does not preclude it being wise to often do something between #1 and #3 (#1 gives maybe 60% of its space to genuflections, #2 gives maybe 70% of its space to insults, #3 gives 0% to either, and I think my default would be more like 10% to genuflections if I thought intentions were mostly good?).
But much better would be that pointing out that someone was in fact doing harm would not be seen as punishment, if they stop when this is pointed out. In the world in which doing things is appreciated and rewarded, saying “I see you trying to do a thing! I think it’s harmful and you should stop.” and you saying “oops!” should net you points without me having to say “POINTS!”
Huh. I think part of what’s bothering me here is that I’m reading requests to award points (on the assumption that otherwise people will assign credit perversely) as declaring intent to punish me if I publicly change my mind in a way that’s not savvy to this game, insofar as implying that perverse norms are an unchangeable fait accompli strengthens those norms.
Ah. That’s my bad for conflating my mental concept of “POINTS!” (a reference mostly to the former At Midnight show, which I’ve generalized) with points in the form of Karma points. I think of generic ‘points’ as the vague mental accounting people do with respect to others by default. When I say I shouldn’t have to say ‘points’ I meant that I shouldn’t have to say words, but I certainly also meant I shouldn’t have to literally give you actual points!
And yeah, the whole metaphor is already a sign that things are not where we’d like them to be.
I didn’t think I was disagreeing with you—I meant to refer to the process of publicly explicitly awarding points to offset the implied reputational damage
Ah again, thanks for clarifying that.