It’s not obvious to me that your friend was actually lying in the strict sense. He may have made that statement because it “felt right” without really considering its truth. He might have heard a lot of news about executions in the USA, but proportionally much less about executions in China, on an emotional level based the opinion that there are more executions in the USA on that without ever actually thinking it through, and then in the heat of the debate that statement just sort of slipped out of him. Of course I don’t know whether anything like this was the case, but it strikes me as more likely than blatant lying.
I assume you haven’t actually asked him why he was lying or you would have mentioned it in the post.
Unless you’re an expert in a specific topic, then it seems to me rather likely that you’re bound to believe in at least some things about it which are in fact false. We don’t have the time or energy to comprehensively check the source of every statement we encounter, nor an ability to reliably keep track of which statements we have indeed checked. Even facts found in seemingly reliable sources, like textbooks on the topic, might be wrong.
I don’t think making an erroneous statement or two is enough for us to say that his facts were weak, or that he resorted too much to emotions. If you discuss any topic long enough, the odds are that you’re going to slip a not-entirely-thought-out statement sooner or later. This is especially so since discussing a topic with someone else will force us to consider points of view we hadn’t thought of ourselves, and make up new responses on the spot.
Incidentally, having to quickly react to new points of view is what makes me a bit suspicious of the sometimes-heard claim “I debunked his claim in debate X, but then I heard him afterwards repeating it debate Y, so clearly he’s intellectually dishonest”. Yes, sometimes this is true, but it might also be that when the other person had more time to reflect on their opponent’s arguments, they thought they found in them a fatal flaw and could thus save their original claim. I know it’s happened to me.
We (three) seem to agree that the friend resorted to emotional thinking… and that would be the reason he was careless or abusive of factual truths.
But I’m not convinced this is evidence that his ‘facts are weak’, because, actually, is there any fact in the matter of whether a government is efficient? In other words, were they discussing something for which facts were entirely the most relevant parameter? His friend shouldn’t have lied about a fact, but when in arguing-an-impression-mode, facts seem much more often useful as rhetorical devices than actual evidence.
″...is there any fact in the matter of whether a government is efficient?”
I think yes, although it’s sticky to define. Take a reductio of extreme cases: say, Somalia vs. Sweden. I think in this context it is clear there is a fact of the matter.
Efficiency should be some sort of ratio of benefit to cost. Somalia has a
feeble government and
no effective taxation; Sweden has a lot of both. This does not determine the relation between the ratios. For low benefit/high cost, the pre-1989 USSR would be a better example.
Assuming Psychohistorian’s friend was arguing in favor of the efficiency of the Chinese government, I think the argument was really about the relatively collectivist morals of the Chinese people and government compared to the morality of the US people and government.
In the USA, most people probably think that the USA government is more efficient than the Chinese government because the USA is more “good” than the Chinese. Most Chinese people don’t think the government has a duty to be “good”, but should instead be focused on relentless growth and strong national unity. The USA government is indeed more “good” than the CCP, but the CCP is indeed focusing on relentless growth and national unity which makes it seem very efficient to people with Urban Residency Permits. It probably doesn’t seem so efficient to the Chinese people that don’t have Urban Residency Permits.
“Relinquish the emotion which rests upon a mistaken belief, and seek to feel fully that emotion which fits the facts.”
Emotions are highly fallible, but they’re also efficient. If you’re a perfect Bayesian, you’ll think everything through completely, without emotion; if your brain contains a mere 30 billion neurons, you’ll use thoughts for the most important things and also emotions for everything.
It’s not obvious to me that your friend was actually lying in the strict sense. He may have made that statement because it “felt right” without really considering its truth. He might have heard a lot of news about executions in the USA, but proportionally much less about executions in China, on an emotional level based the opinion that there are more executions in the USA on that without ever actually thinking it through, and then in the heat of the debate that statement just sort of slipped out of him. Of course I don’t know whether anything like this was the case, but it strikes me as more likely than blatant lying.
I assume you haven’t actually asked him why he was lying or you would have mentioned it in the post.
Even if it is a gut feeling and not an explicit lie, he is still showing that his facts are weak since he’s resorting to emotions.
Unless you’re an expert in a specific topic, then it seems to me rather likely that you’re bound to believe in at least some things about it which are in fact false. We don’t have the time or energy to comprehensively check the source of every statement we encounter, nor an ability to reliably keep track of which statements we have indeed checked. Even facts found in seemingly reliable sources, like textbooks on the topic, might be wrong.
I don’t think making an erroneous statement or two is enough for us to say that his facts were weak, or that he resorted too much to emotions. If you discuss any topic long enough, the odds are that you’re going to slip a not-entirely-thought-out statement sooner or later. This is especially so since discussing a topic with someone else will force us to consider points of view we hadn’t thought of ourselves, and make up new responses on the spot.
Incidentally, having to quickly react to new points of view is what makes me a bit suspicious of the sometimes-heard claim “I debunked his claim in debate X, but then I heard him afterwards repeating it debate Y, so clearly he’s intellectually dishonest”. Yes, sometimes this is true, but it might also be that when the other person had more time to reflect on their opponent’s arguments, they thought they found in them a fatal flaw and could thus save their original claim. I know it’s happened to me.
We (three) seem to agree that the friend resorted to emotional thinking… and that would be the reason he was careless or abusive of factual truths.
But I’m not convinced this is evidence that his ‘facts are weak’, because, actually, is there any fact in the matter of whether a government is efficient? In other words, were they discussing something for which facts were entirely the most relevant parameter? His friend shouldn’t have lied about a fact, but when in arguing-an-impression-mode, facts seem much more often useful as rhetorical devices than actual evidence.
Not disagreeing with your overall point but...
″...is there any fact in the matter of whether a government is efficient?”
I think yes, although it’s sticky to define. Take a reductio of extreme cases: say, Somalia vs. Sweden. I think in this context it is clear there is a fact of the matter.
Efficiency should be some sort of ratio of benefit to cost. Somalia has a feeble government and no effective taxation; Sweden has a lot of both. This does not determine the relation between the ratios. For low benefit/high cost, the pre-1989 USSR would be a better example.
I didn’t think Psychohistorian meant “efficiency” in the technical sense, but yeah, I see what you’re saying.
Assuming Psychohistorian’s friend was arguing in favor of the efficiency of the Chinese government, I think the argument was really about the relatively collectivist morals of the Chinese people and government compared to the morality of the US people and government.
In the USA, most people probably think that the USA government is more efficient than the Chinese government because the USA is more “good” than the Chinese. Most Chinese people don’t think the government has a duty to be “good”, but should instead be focused on relentless growth and strong national unity. The USA government is indeed more “good” than the CCP, but the CCP is indeed focusing on relentless growth and national unity which makes it seem very efficient to people with Urban Residency Permits. It probably doesn’t seem so efficient to the Chinese people that don’t have Urban Residency Permits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system
“Relinquish the emotion which rests upon a mistaken belief, and seek to feel fully that emotion which fits the facts.”
Emotions are highly fallible, but they’re also efficient. If you’re a perfect Bayesian, you’ll think everything through completely, without emotion; if your brain contains a mere 30 billion neurons, you’ll use thoughts for the most important things and also emotions for everything.