If you are a closed system X, and something within system X only has objective value inasmuch as something outside X values it, then does the fact that other people care about you and your ability to achieve your goals help? They are outside X, and while their first-order interests probably never match yours perfectly, there is a general human tendency to care about others’ goals qua others’ goals.
then does the fact that other people care about you and your ability to achieve your goals help?
If you mean that I might value myself and my ability to achieve my goals more because I value other people valuing that, then it does not help. My valuation of their caring is just as subjective as any other value I would have.
On the other hand, perhaps you were suggesting that this mutual caring could be a mechanism for creating objective value, which is kind of in line with what I think. For that matter, I think that my own valuation of something, even without the valuation of others, does create objective value—but that’s a FOOM. I’m trying to imagine reality without that.
If you mean that I might value myself and my ability to achieve my goals more because I value other people valuing that, then it does not help. My valuation of their caring is just as subjective as any other value I would have.
That’s not what I mean. I don’t mean that their caring about you/your goals makes things matter because you care if they care. I mean that if you’re a closed system, and you’re looking for a way outside of yourself to find value in your interests, other people are outside you and may value your interests (directly or indirectly). They would carry on doing this, and this would carry on conferring external value to you and your interests, even if you didn’t give a crap or didn’t know anybody else besides you existed—how objective can you get?
On the other hand, perhaps you were suggesting that this mutual caring could be a mechanism for creating objective value
I don’t think it’s necessary—I think even if you were the only person in the universe, you’d matter, assuming you cared about yourself—and I certainly don’t think it has to be really mutual. Some people can be “free riders” or even altruistic, self-abnegating victims of the scheme without the system ceasing to function. So this is a FOOV? So now it looks like we don’t disagree at all—what was I trying to convince you of, again?
So this is a FOOV? So now it looks like we don’t disagree at all—what was I trying to convince you of, again?
I guess I’m really not sure. I’ll have to think about it a while. What will probably happen is that next time I find myself debating with someone asserting there is no Framework of Objective Value, I will ask them about this case; if minds can create objective value by their value-ing. I will also ask them to clarify what they mean by objective value.
I’m either not sure what you’re trying to do or why you’re trying to do it. What do you mean by FOOM here? Why do you want to imagine reality without it? How does people caring about each other fall into that category?
If you are a closed system X, and something within system X only has objective value inasmuch as something outside X values it, then does the fact that other people care about you and your ability to achieve your goals help? They are outside X, and while their first-order interests probably never match yours perfectly, there is a general human tendency to care about others’ goals qua others’ goals.
If you mean that I might value myself and my ability to achieve my goals more because I value other people valuing that, then it does not help. My valuation of their caring is just as subjective as any other value I would have.
On the other hand, perhaps you were suggesting that this mutual caring could be a mechanism for creating objective value, which is kind of in line with what I think. For that matter, I think that my own valuation of something, even without the valuation of others, does create objective value—but that’s a FOOM. I’m trying to imagine reality without that.
That’s not what I mean. I don’t mean that their caring about you/your goals makes things matter because you care if they care. I mean that if you’re a closed system, and you’re looking for a way outside of yourself to find value in your interests, other people are outside you and may value your interests (directly or indirectly). They would carry on doing this, and this would carry on conferring external value to you and your interests, even if you didn’t give a crap or didn’t know anybody else besides you existed—how objective can you get?
I don’t think it’s necessary—I think even if you were the only person in the universe, you’d matter, assuming you cared about yourself—and I certainly don’t think it has to be really mutual. Some people can be “free riders” or even altruistic, self-abnegating victims of the scheme without the system ceasing to function. So this is a FOOV? So now it looks like we don’t disagree at all—what was I trying to convince you of, again?
I guess I’m really not sure. I’ll have to think about it a while. What will probably happen is that next time I find myself debating with someone asserting there is no Framework of Objective Value, I will ask them about this case; if minds can create objective value by their value-ing. I will also ask them to clarify what they mean by objective value.
Truthfully, I’ve kind of forgotten what this issue I raised is about, probably for a few days or a week.
I’m either not sure what you’re trying to do or why you’re trying to do it. What do you mean by FOOM here? Why do you want to imagine reality without it? How does people caring about each other fall into that category?