I mostly agree with this, the part which feels off is
I’d like to say here “screw memetic egregores, follow the actual values of actual humans”
Humans already follow their actual Values[1], and will always do because their Values are the reason they do anything at all. They also construct narratives about themselves that involve Goodness, and sometimes deny the distinction between Goodness and Values altogether. This act of (self-)deception is in itself motivated by the Values, at least instrumentally.
I do have a version of the “screw memetic egregores” attitude, which is, stop self-deceiving. Because, deception distorts epistemics, and we cannot afford distorted epistemics right now. It’s not necessarily correct advice for everyone, but I believe it’s correct advice for everyone who is seriously trying to save the world, at least.
Another nuance is that, in addition to empathy and naive tit-for-tat, there is also acausal tit-for-tat. This further pushes the Value-recommended strategy in the direction of something Goodness-like (in certain respects), even though ofc it doesn’t coincide with the Goodness of any particular culture in any particular historical period.
What people do is a compromise between what society wants them to do, and what they would otherwise do. Theres a sense in which that’s doing what they value,since they disvalue societal punishments. So there is a sense in which they are always doing what they already want, but it misses an important point .. it’s a misleading bit of cleverness.
Without getting into moral realism, following all your own values is likely to get you into trouble with society.
I agree, except that I don’t think it’s especially misleading. If I live on the 10th floor and someone is dangling a tasty cake two meters outside of my window (and suppose for the sake of the argument that it’s offered free of charge), I won’t just walk out of the window and fall to my death. This doesn’t mean I’m not following my values, it just means I’m actually thinking through the consequences rather than reacting impulsively to every value-laden thing.
I mostly agree with this, the part which feels off is
Humans already follow their actual Values[1], and will always do because their Values are the reason they do anything at all. They also construct narratives about themselves that involve Goodness, and sometimes deny the distinction between Goodness and Values altogether. This act of (self-)deception is in itself motivated by the Values, at least instrumentally.
I do have a version of the “screw memetic egregores” attitude, which is, stop self-deceiving. Because, deception distorts epistemics, and we cannot afford distorted epistemics right now. It’s not necessarily correct advice for everyone, but I believe it’s correct advice for everyone who is seriously trying to save the world, at least.
Another nuance is that, in addition to empathy and naive tit-for-tat, there is also acausal tit-for-tat. This further pushes the Value-recommended strategy in the direction of something Goodness-like (in certain respects), even though ofc it doesn’t coincide with the Goodness of any particular culture in any particular historical period.
As Steven Byrnes wrote, “values” might be not the best term, but I will keep it here.
What people do is a compromise between what society wants them to do, and what they would otherwise do. Theres a sense in which that’s doing what they value,since they disvalue societal punishments. So there is a sense in which they are always doing what they already want, but it misses an important point .. it’s a misleading bit of cleverness.
Without getting into moral realism, following all your own values is likely to get you into trouble with society.
I agree, except that I don’t think it’s especially misleading. If I live on the 10th floor and someone is dangling a tasty cake two meters outside of my window (and suppose for the sake of the argument that it’s offered free of charge), I won’t just walk out of the window and fall to my death. This doesn’t mean I’m not following my values, it just means I’m actually thinking through the consequences rather than reacting impulsively to every value-laden thing.