I fail to see how anything you said has an impact on the observation that Andy did not need to return to the mental institute.
Given the current scientific framework you don’t change a theory based on anecdotal evidence and single case studies. Especially when it comes to a person who’s known to be at least partly lying about the anecdotes he tells.
If whatever Bandler does is producing verifiable results, shouldn’t it be at least an explicit goal of science to find out why it works for him, as opposed to whether it works if you throw an NLP manual at an undergrad?
What do you mean with the phrase “explicit goal of science”? The goals that grand funding agencies set when they give out grants?
To the extent that you think studying people with high abilities is good approach of advancing science, I wouldn’t pick a person who’s in the habit of lying and showmanship but a person who values epistemically true beliefs and who’s open about what they think they are doing.
I think the term pseudoscience doens’t really apply for Bandler. For me the term means a person who’s pretending to play with the rules of science but who doesn’t. Bandler isn’t playing with the rules or pretending to do so.
That doesn’t mean that he’s wrong and what he teaches isn’t effective but at the same time it doesn’t bring his work into science.
It’s typical for New Atheists to reject everything that’s not part of the scientific mosaic as useless discredited pseudoscience. I don’t think that’s useful way of looking at how the world works. If you want to go further into that direction of thought, a nice talk was recently shared on the Facebook LW group:
Scientific Pluralism and the Mission of History and Philosophy of Science
For full disclosure, I do have a decent amount of NLP training with Chris Mulzer who attended Bandlers trainer training program every year for a decade. I know multiple people who attended seminars with Bandler.
Given the current scientific framework you don’t change a theory based on anecdotal evidence and single case studies.
Oh, I see the problem now. You’re waiting for research to allow you to decide to do the research you’re waiting for. When the scientific framework tells you there isn’t enough research to reach a conclusion, doesn’t it also tell you to do more research? Picking a research topic should not be as rigorous a process as the research itself.
Even if all the anecdotal and single case studies are false, shouldn’t you at least be interested in why so many people believe in it? NLP is not a religion, you pick it up as an adult. Even if the entire NLP/hypnosis/seduction/whatever industry is just a giant crackpot convention, they still demonstrate enough persuasion techniques to convince people it’s real. Shouldn’t you be swarming over that with the idea of eliminating your suicide rate?
I have more formal credentials with NLP then with academic psychology.
Even if the entire NLP/hypnosis/seduction/whatever industry is just a giant crackpot convention
I have multiple friends who makes their living in that industry. One of my best friends worked for a while as a salesperson for Bandlers seminars. I don’t have friends who have as much friends who have degrees in academic psychology.
I just understands both sides well enough to tell you about the situation we have at the moment.
Given the current scientific framework you don’t change a theory based on anecdotal evidence and single case studies. Especially when it comes to a person who’s known to be at least partly lying about the anecdotes he tells.
What do you mean with the phrase “explicit goal of science”? The goals that grand funding agencies set when they give out grants? To the extent that you think studying people with high abilities is good approach of advancing science, I wouldn’t pick a person who’s in the habit of lying and showmanship but a person who values epistemically true beliefs and who’s open about what they think they are doing.
I think the term pseudoscience doens’t really apply for Bandler. For me the term means a person who’s pretending to play with the rules of science but who doesn’t. Bandler isn’t playing with the rules or pretending to do so. That doesn’t mean that he’s wrong and what he teaches isn’t effective but at the same time it doesn’t bring his work into science.
It’s typical for New Atheists to reject everything that’s not part of the scientific mosaic as useless discredited pseudoscience. I don’t think that’s useful way of looking at how the world works. If you want to go further into that direction of thought, a nice talk was recently shared on the Facebook LW group: Scientific Pluralism and the Mission of History and Philosophy of Science
For full disclosure, I do have a decent amount of NLP training with Chris Mulzer who attended Bandlers trainer training program every year for a decade. I know multiple people who attended seminars with Bandler.
Oh, I see the problem now. You’re waiting for research to allow you to decide to do the research you’re waiting for. When the scientific framework tells you there isn’t enough research to reach a conclusion, doesn’t it also tell you to do more research? Picking a research topic should not be as rigorous a process as the research itself.
Even if all the anecdotal and single case studies are false, shouldn’t you at least be interested in why so many people believe in it? NLP is not a religion, you pick it up as an adult. Even if the entire NLP/hypnosis/seduction/whatever industry is just a giant crackpot convention, they still demonstrate enough persuasion techniques to convince people it’s real. Shouldn’t you be swarming over that with the idea of eliminating your suicide rate?
What do you mean when you say “you”?
I have more formal credentials with NLP then with academic psychology.
I have multiple friends who makes their living in that industry. One of my best friends worked for a while as a salesperson for Bandlers seminars. I don’t have friends who have as much friends who have degrees in academic psychology.
I just understands both sides well enough to tell you about the situation we have at the moment.