I write this out mostly to make sure you agree with this classification of the middle case.
Yes, that’s what I meant by externally validated. The middle case isn’t external validation because it’s still just society’s subjective opinion.
The next question is obviously “are you depressed?”
No, I’m not depressed. But as Alicorn correctly described, I anticipate being depressed.
… Your argument is beginning to sink in. If I feel depressed about something, then this just means I’m depressed, and I might need medication.
So, OK, if I jump the cliff, then I won’t feel depressed (unless I’m depressed).
(...)
Wow, I’m really beginning to understand this argument and its … depressing.
So you’re saying my sense of purpose and meaning is just a state of my body (say, serotonin levels) and whereas I think it could depend on something external—like whether my values are externally validated—you’re saying it’s just internal. I feel like I have purpose or I don’t, based on serotonin, say, and then I project that feeling as being caused by something external.
… So I imagine that I would be depressed if external meaning disappears, because I imagine that meaning comes externally.
The analogy to make all this rambling clear is that of me sitting in a room worried that if I close the curtains, it’s going to get dark. But you’re saying, no it doesn’t make any difference because the light in the room is coming from the table lamp, not the window.
I understand some kind of argument now, whether or not its the one you intended. I’ll meditate on it. I’ll simply observe that I do, in fact, feel extremely depressed about the light coming from the table and there not being any sun.
So, anyway, I’m going to go eat lunch because when I’m this sad it means my blood sugar is low.
So, anyway, I’m going to go eat lunch because usually when I’m sad it means my blood sugar is low.
Upvoted for this bit. This type of mood maintenance is a big deal—I consider it a major breakthrough of my teens that I started considering my emotions “things to be managed with chocolate and company and thought and sleep” instead of “things unrelated to anything I’ve been doing with myself that reflect the ultimate nature of reality and make me write bad poetry and contemplate suicide”.
Yes, I do feel much better after eating; no sadness at all.
Yet I hope you realize that I was also making an ironic statement about Jack’s argument while buying some time to think about it.
While depression leads our thoughts to existential and nihilistic angst (and bad poetry and suicidal thoughts) our feelings of happiness, meaning and purpose also depend upon our beliefs. Accurate or inaccurate, beliefs affect how we feel.
So my response to Jack’s argument is that if I believe that the purpose and meaning of my life depends upon objective value, then I will feel depressed if I believe that there isn’t any (even if I’m not clinically depressed). So I still need to examine these beliefs: whether feelings of purpose and meaning really do depend upon objective value as a necessary condition (for myself only, I understand this is not universal) and whether or not objective value exists.
If the first, and not the second, then this would mean that accurate beliefs and feelings of purpose and meaning are simply not compatible for me.
A refinement: Proper serotonin levels (lack of depression) confers the ability to assign meaning to things and take pleasure from that meaning—it’s more like the electricity that powers the lamp than the light itself. It’s still possible for the light to be off, even if the electricity is running.That’s what the original post was talking about: According to Eliezer, most people who claim to be suffering from existential angst need to realize that they can turn their light on for themselves, and figure out how to do so (Edit: without resorting to delusional thinking, which is how theists do it) - and that’s a solution that the Judeo-Christian view of things doesn’t suggest.
It is right that meaning and purpose don’t come from serontin levels. And serotonin levels aren’t the only cause of meaning assignment. But what I was denying above is that there are instances where someone is not depressed and yet also nihilistic (not having assigned meaning to anything). I think assigning meaning to the world is basically instinctual, if you aren’t depressed you’ll start valuing things without having to will it or make a conscious choice.
It does seem to be possible, for example in alexuthymics (example—and from the rest of that post, the poster doesn’t appear to be depressed). I’ll agree that such situations are rare, though, and perhaps impossible for people with normal brain-function.
The point I was making was more along the lines of ‘don’t assume you’re clinically depressed just because you don’t automatically notice meaning in things the instant you look for it’, though.
Great link, thanks. Unfortunately it led to a really intense reedit procrastination session. It did occur to me that there might be some kind of condition like this, and I thought about including that possibility but didn’t want to qualify the argument and make it more complicated. I should have checked to see if there was such a thing. Anyway yes, qualify my previous claim with “with normal brain function”.
The point I was making was more along the lines of ‘don’t assume you’re clinically depressed just because you don’t automatically notice meaning in things the instant you look for it’, though.
Sure. My position is just that chronic nihilism is epiphenomenal to unhappiness except in cases of non-standard brain function.
The analogy to make all this rambling clear is that of me sitting in a room worried that if I close the curtains, it’s going to get dark. But you’re saying, no it doesn’t make any difference because the light in the room is coming from the table lamp, not the window.
I understand some kind of argument now, whether or not its the one you intended. I’ll meditate on it. I’ll simply observe that I do, in fact, feel extremely depressed about the light coming from the table and there not being any sun.
Suppose that everyone has such a room, with a lamp giving a light just like your own. Is this not like a sun that we all share?
Yes, that’s what I meant by externally validated. The middle case isn’t external validation because it’s still just society’s subjective opinion.
No, I’m not depressed. But as Alicorn correctly described, I anticipate being depressed.
… Your argument is beginning to sink in. If I feel depressed about something, then this just means I’m depressed, and I might need medication.
So, OK, if I jump the cliff, then I won’t feel depressed (unless I’m depressed).
(...)
Wow, I’m really beginning to understand this argument and its … depressing.
So you’re saying my sense of purpose and meaning is just a state of my body (say, serotonin levels) and whereas I think it could depend on something external—like whether my values are externally validated—you’re saying it’s just internal. I feel like I have purpose or I don’t, based on serotonin, say, and then I project that feeling as being caused by something external.
… So I imagine that I would be depressed if external meaning disappears, because I imagine that meaning comes externally.
The analogy to make all this rambling clear is that of me sitting in a room worried that if I close the curtains, it’s going to get dark. But you’re saying, no it doesn’t make any difference because the light in the room is coming from the table lamp, not the window.
I understand some kind of argument now, whether or not its the one you intended. I’ll meditate on it. I’ll simply observe that I do, in fact, feel extremely depressed about the light coming from the table and there not being any sun.
So, anyway, I’m going to go eat lunch because when I’m this sad it means my blood sugar is low.
Upvoted for this bit. This type of mood maintenance is a big deal—I consider it a major breakthrough of my teens that I started considering my emotions “things to be managed with chocolate and company and thought and sleep” instead of “things unrelated to anything I’ve been doing with myself that reflect the ultimate nature of reality and make me write bad poetry and contemplate suicide”.
Yes, I do feel much better after eating; no sadness at all.
Yet I hope you realize that I was also making an ironic statement about Jack’s argument while buying some time to think about it.
While depression leads our thoughts to existential and nihilistic angst (and bad poetry and suicidal thoughts) our feelings of happiness, meaning and purpose also depend upon our beliefs. Accurate or inaccurate, beliefs affect how we feel.
So my response to Jack’s argument is that if I believe that the purpose and meaning of my life depends upon objective value, then I will feel depressed if I believe that there isn’t any (even if I’m not clinically depressed). So I still need to examine these beliefs: whether feelings of purpose and meaning really do depend upon objective value as a necessary condition (for myself only, I understand this is not universal) and whether or not objective value exists.
If the first, and not the second, then this would mean that accurate beliefs and feelings of purpose and meaning are simply not compatible for me.
A refinement: Proper serotonin levels (lack of depression) confers the ability to assign meaning to things and take pleasure from that meaning—it’s more like the electricity that powers the lamp than the light itself. It’s still possible for the light to be off, even if the electricity is running.That’s what the original post was talking about: According to Eliezer, most people who claim to be suffering from existential angst need to realize that they can turn their light on for themselves, and figure out how to do so (Edit: without resorting to delusional thinking, which is how theists do it) - and that’s a solution that the Judeo-Christian view of things doesn’t suggest.
It is right that meaning and purpose don’t come from serontin levels. And serotonin levels aren’t the only cause of meaning assignment. But what I was denying above is that there are instances where someone is not depressed and yet also nihilistic (not having assigned meaning to anything). I think assigning meaning to the world is basically instinctual, if you aren’t depressed you’ll start valuing things without having to will it or make a conscious choice.
It does seem to be possible, for example in alexuthymics (example—and from the rest of that post, the poster doesn’t appear to be depressed). I’ll agree that such situations are rare, though, and perhaps impossible for people with normal brain-function.
The point I was making was more along the lines of ‘don’t assume you’re clinically depressed just because you don’t automatically notice meaning in things the instant you look for it’, though.
Great link, thanks. Unfortunately it led to a really intense reedit procrastination session. It did occur to me that there might be some kind of condition like this, and I thought about including that possibility but didn’t want to qualify the argument and make it more complicated. I should have checked to see if there was such a thing. Anyway yes, qualify my previous claim with “with normal brain function”.
Sure. My position is just that chronic nihilism is epiphenomenal to unhappiness except in cases of non-standard brain function.
Suppose that everyone has such a room, with a lamp giving a light just like your own. Is this not like a sun that we all share?