Uh. No. Non-superconductivity is not usually considered as an example of
emergence. Because the non-superconductive system is composed of smaller
subsystems which are themselves non-superconductive. Same goes for non-ferromagnetism. Not “emergent” because nothing new is emerging from the collective that was not already present in the components.
And even if what you wrote were true it would be a problem only if emergence were being used as an explanation. But, outside of the philosophy literature, it almost never is used that way. You are tilting at windmills here.
The apparent disagreement here, comes from different understandings of the word “non-superconductivity”.
By “non-superconductivity”, Yudkowsky means (non-super)conductivity, i.e. any sort of conductivity that is not superconductivity. This is indeed emergent, since conductivity does not exist at the level of quantum field.
By “non-superconductivity”, Perplexed means non-(superconductivity), i.e. anything that is not superconductivity. This is not emergent as Perplexed explained.
Non-superconductivity means that moving electrons through it will result in the atoms moving unpredictably. It is a product of how electrons and atoms interact. It is less emergent than how, if they interact a different way, the atoms will not start moving unpredictably.
It’s made up of non-superconductive subsystems in that if you take a little piece of it, that will be non-superconductive, but the same applies to a superconductor. You can’t just take one atom and say whether or not it’s superconductive. A current can’t flow through one atom in a relevant sense.
I think that the point is that emergence is in the mind of the observer. If the observer is describing the situation at the particle level, then superconductivity is not there regardless of the size of the collection of particles considered. But, when you describe things at the flowing-electric-fluid level, then superconductivity may emerge.
Non-sharpness is not usually considered as an example of emergence. Because the non-sharp system is composed of smaller subsystems which are themselves non-sharp. Same goes for non-ferromagnetism. Not “emergent” because nothing new is emerging from the collective that was not already present in the components.
Let’s use bluntness.
Non-bluntness is not usually considered as an example of emergence. Because the non-blunt system is composed of smaller subsystems which are themselves non-blunt. Same goes for non-ferromagnetism. Not “emergent” because nothing new is emerging from the collective that was not already present in the components.
That humans say “sharp”, “blunt”, “conductive”, and “non-conductive” in English is due to circumstances of culture, technology, what minerals are abundant on Earth, etc. At least, I don’t know the word, if there is one, for non-conductive.
To the extent “sharp” and “blunt” are not opposites, I apologize for the imperfect example.
It seems to me that emergence is the opposite of rigorous structure. Take human brain function (similar to your intelligence comment in the article). Claiming that brain function is emergent versus rigorously ordered allows you to make a prediction, namely that a child who has a portion of their brain removed will retain all or a large portion of the functionality of the removed portion, or they will not. A child with half of their brain missing would be expected to be extraordinarily impaired. A simple search of the literature should prove it one way or another.
Thus, when one says that some property is emergent, it means that it is not limited by the macro form, but by the conditions effecting the micro components from which the property emerges. This should allow for all manner of predictive ability. Of course, there are plenty of people who latch on to the word, just like there are plenty of people who latch on to the word “evolution”, and don’t think or use it to make predictions, and in that, your point is well taken.
Sorry for commenting 5 years after the fact, but this place seems to have at least some ongoing discussion.
A child with half of their brain missing would be expected to be extraordinarily impaired. A simple search of the literature should prove it one way or another.
According to this, a child with half of their brain removed can sometimes do just fine. It has a lot to do with age, though, given that children have more neuroplasticity–a fully functioning adult would probably lose a lot of their normal abilities.
Aren’t superconductivity and ferromagnetism perfect examples of emergent phenomena?
Yes. So are non-superconductivity and non-ferromagnetism. That’s the problem.
Uh. No. Non-superconductivity is not usually considered as an example of emergence. Because the non-superconductive system is composed of smaller subsystems which are themselves non-superconductive. Same goes for non-ferromagnetism. Not “emergent” because nothing new is emerging from the collective that was not already present in the components.
And even if what you wrote were true it would be a problem only if emergence were being used as an explanation. But, outside of the philosophy literature, it almost never is used that way. You are tilting at windmills here.
The apparent disagreement here, comes from different understandings of the word “non-superconductivity”.
By “non-superconductivity”, Yudkowsky means (non-super)conductivity, i.e. any sort of conductivity that is not superconductivity. This is indeed emergent, since conductivity does not exist at the level of quantum field.
By “non-superconductivity”, Perplexed means non-(superconductivity), i.e. anything that is not superconductivity. This is not emergent as Perplexed explained.
Non-superconductivity means that moving electrons through it will result in the atoms moving unpredictably. It is a product of how electrons and atoms interact. It is less emergent than how, if they interact a different way, the atoms will not start moving unpredictably.
It’s made up of non-superconductive subsystems in that if you take a little piece of it, that will be non-superconductive, but the same applies to a superconductor. You can’t just take one atom and say whether or not it’s superconductive. A current can’t flow through one atom in a relevant sense.
I think that the point is that emergence is in the mind of the observer. If the observer is describing the situation at the particle level, then superconductivity is not there regardless of the size of the collection of particles considered. But, when you describe things at the flowing-electric-fluid level, then superconductivity may emerge.
Aren’t the labels arbitrary?
Let’s use sharpness.
Let’s use bluntness.
That humans say “sharp”, “blunt”, “conductive”, and “non-conductive” in English is due to circumstances of culture, technology, what minerals are abundant on Earth, etc. At least, I don’t know the word, if there is one, for non-conductive.
To the extent “sharp” and “blunt” are not opposites, I apologize for the imperfect example.
“Resistant”?
Conductivity isn’t there either unless you describe them at the flowing-electric-fluid level.
It seems to me that emergence is the opposite of rigorous structure. Take human brain function (similar to your intelligence comment in the article). Claiming that brain function is emergent versus rigorously ordered allows you to make a prediction, namely that a child who has a portion of their brain removed will retain all or a large portion of the functionality of the removed portion, or they will not. A child with half of their brain missing would be expected to be extraordinarily impaired. A simple search of the literature should prove it one way or another.
Thus, when one says that some property is emergent, it means that it is not limited by the macro form, but by the conditions effecting the micro components from which the property emerges. This should allow for all manner of predictive ability. Of course, there are plenty of people who latch on to the word, just like there are plenty of people who latch on to the word “evolution”, and don’t think or use it to make predictions, and in that, your point is well taken.
Sorry for commenting 5 years after the fact, but this place seems to have at least some ongoing discussion.
According to this, a child with half of their brain removed can sometimes do just fine. It has a lot to do with age, though, given that children have more neuroplasticity–a fully functioning adult would probably lose a lot of their normal abilities.
“Holistic” seems to label that phenomenon more clearly, for my money.