Organisation A can be like organisation B in every way except their doctrine. It has been remarked, not least by rationalwiki that LW is like Any Rand’s Objectivism, although doctrinally they are poles apart.
It is perfectly possible for an organisation to pay lip service to outreach without making the changes and sacrifices needed for real engagement.
With respect to the point that two organizations CAN be similar except in doctrine, I agree, but I don’t think that’s true for Less Wrong and postmodernism, hence my comment. I was directly addressing the points of comparison the poster argued for.
If you are speaking of Objectivism the organization led by Ayn Rand rather than Objectivism the collective philosophy of Ayn Rand, the differences are pretty massive. Objectivism was a bona fide cult of personality, while the vast majority of people on Less Wrong have never met Eliezer and he no longer even engages with the site. Watch the first part of this interview and compare it with Less Wrong. Perhaps this could be argued specifically of the rationalists living in the Bay Area, but I don’t know enough to say.
The article on rationalwiki has been updated and now seems substantially fairer than it was when I last saw it a few years ago. It doesn’t draw any direct comparison to Objectivism, and now says that the “appearance of a cult has faded.” That said, I don’t put much stock in their opinions on such things.
It doesn’t seem to me that people on Less Wrong merely place lip service on outreach (although once again we are certainly in agreement that such a thing is possible!). There seem to be a lot of posts on meetups here, advice on how to get new attendees, etc. Making “changes and sacrifices needed for real engagement” isn’t straightforward in practice (and engagement isn’t an unqualified good). You have to draw new members without betraying your core principles and without it becoming a place the existing members don’t want to participate in.
It seems you are correct. I had a definition in mind for a cult of personality which was actually much narrower than what it actually means, upon looking it up. Nonetheless, so far you’ve implied a lot more than you’ve actually stated, and your arguments about “what is possible” are less interesting to me than arguments about “what is.” Frankly, I find argumentation by implication annoying, so I’m tapping out.
Organisation A can be like organisation B in every way except their doctrine. It has been remarked, not least by rationalwiki that LW is like Any Rand’s Objectivism, although doctrinally they are poles apart.
It is perfectly possible for an organisation to pay lip service to outreach without making the changes and sacrifices needed for real engagement.
With respect to the point that two organizations CAN be similar except in doctrine, I agree, but I don’t think that’s true for Less Wrong and postmodernism, hence my comment. I was directly addressing the points of comparison the poster argued for.
If you are speaking of Objectivism the organization led by Ayn Rand rather than Objectivism the collective philosophy of Ayn Rand, the differences are pretty massive. Objectivism was a bona fide cult of personality, while the vast majority of people on Less Wrong have never met Eliezer and he no longer even engages with the site. Watch the first part of this interview and compare it with Less Wrong. Perhaps this could be argued specifically of the rationalists living in the Bay Area, but I don’t know enough to say.
The article on rationalwiki has been updated and now seems substantially fairer than it was when I last saw it a few years ago. It doesn’t draw any direct comparison to Objectivism, and now says that the “appearance of a cult has faded.” That said, I don’t put much stock in their opinions on such things.
It doesn’t seem to me that people on Less Wrong merely place lip service on outreach (although once again we are certainly in agreement that such a thing is possible!). There seem to be a lot of posts on meetups here, advice on how to get new attendees, etc. Making “changes and sacrifices needed for real engagement” isn’t straightforward in practice (and engagement isn’t an unqualified good). You have to draw new members without betraying your core principles and without it becoming a place the existing members don’t want to participate in.
Objectivism did and does have plenty of adherents who never met Rand. Personal contact isn’t a prerequisite for a personality cult.
It seems you are correct. I had a definition in mind for a cult of personality which was actually much narrower than what it actually means, upon looking it up. Nonetheless, so far you’ve implied a lot more than you’ve actually stated, and your arguments about “what is possible” are less interesting to me than arguments about “what is.” Frankly, I find argumentation by implication annoying, so I’m tapping out.
Quick question: how much do these doctrinal differences matter?
Matter to whom? If you join that kind of organisation, you are probably looking for answers. If not, maybe not.