It sounds like he’s being rebellious. Separate the rebelliousness from the question of profanity, and discuss them separately. You might say something like “Asking questions if you genuinely want to understand something better is great, but asking questions to try to frustrate or annoy me is not. I’m getting the sense that you’re doing the latter.”
If he persists, put your foot down—but be really clear that it’s for the intent to annoy you, rather than because he’s asking questions in an attempt to honestly understand something.
It may also help to ask him, openly and gently, why he’s being rebellious. Sometimes rebelliousness comes from a perception that the rules are arbitrary or unfair. If you understand what he’s feeling, you can be in a better position to address those underlying causes. For example—Larks’s suggestion that sharing the reasons you don’t want him to swear may help. And maybe it would also help him to explain how this is a subjective issue, highly dependent on things like tone and social context, and perfectly clear rules are unfortunately impossible.
You might say something like “Asking questions if you genuinely want to understand something better is great, but asking questions to try to frustrate or annoy me is not. I’m getting the sense that you’re doing the latter.”
Telling someone who tries to wage status conflicts with you that you want him to stop fighting for more status is pretty pointless.
I’m not sure “status conflict” is the only possibility here; for example, the terminal value might be something like autonomy, or feeling genuinely listened to.
He is occasionally openly rebellious on a small scale. I suspect that being rebellious towards parents is a terminal value for many 10-year-old boys.
If he persists, put your foot down—but be really clear that it’s for the intent to annoy you, rather than because he’s asking questions in an attempt to honestly understand something.
We have told him that other people will think less of him if he swears, that some words are attacks on groups and hearing these words will cause emotional discomfort to members of these groups, and that his swearing causes his mom some discomfort. I have told him that while I am not inherently bothered by him swearing, I don’t want him to do it around me because it will make it more likely that he will swear at school, but he claims that his swearing at home doesn’t increase the likelihood of him swearing at school.
he claims that his swearing at home doesn’t increase the likelihood of him swearing at school
Rationalists make bets. Is he ready to make a bet on this claim? (Framing this as “bet” could be better than framing it as a “punishment”. Of course there needs to be some reward if he wins the bet, otherwise there is no incentive.)
The 10 year old is probably risk averse on this, so would have good reason not to take such a bet—pretty much anything that he would lose for losing the bet is a loss that he wouldn’t be able to absorb, and no sane parent is going to give him a punishment that is small enough that he can absorb it. Of course, being a 10 year old, he wouldn’t use the term “risk-averse” and may phrase it in an awkward way or be unable to put his objection into coherent words at all, but that’s basically what he’d be doing.
So the fact that he would likely refuse such a bet (unless he is overly optimistic, also a possibility) won’t prove that he is wrong. As a parent, you could always lie and say “if you won’t take the bet, that means you don’t really believe it” but you would be lying, so whether you should do that depends on what you think about using bad reasoning to make kids obey.
On the other hand, it would be perfectly rationalist to say “I’m a grownup. I know how people, and especially kids, act. If I let you swear at home you will say it somewhere else, so no, I’m not going to let you swear at home.” You’re not criticizing his reasoning, you’re asserting that you have better priors than he does, and you most likely do.
but he claims that his swearing at home doesn’t increase the likelihood of him swearing at school
Tough! Many adults fail to understand that they’re not perfect rational agents, so instead that their habits really matter. I guess on the bright side this could be a good opportunity to teach him that he should not encultivate habits that raise the psychic cost of virtuous behaviour, even if those habits are themselves not inherently vices.
What is the reason you don’t want him to swear? Maybe you could tell him that.
A few thoughts:
It sounds like he’s being rebellious. Separate the rebelliousness from the question of profanity, and discuss them separately. You might say something like “Asking questions if you genuinely want to understand something better is great, but asking questions to try to frustrate or annoy me is not. I’m getting the sense that you’re doing the latter.”
If he persists, put your foot down—but be really clear that it’s for the intent to annoy you, rather than because he’s asking questions in an attempt to honestly understand something.
It may also help to ask him, openly and gently, why he’s being rebellious. Sometimes rebelliousness comes from a perception that the rules are arbitrary or unfair. If you understand what he’s feeling, you can be in a better position to address those underlying causes. For example—Larks’s suggestion that sharing the reasons you don’t want him to swear may help. And maybe it would also help him to explain how this is a subjective issue, highly dependent on things like tone and social context, and perfectly clear rules are unfortunately impossible.
Telling someone who tries to wage status conflicts with you that you want him to stop fighting for more status is pretty pointless.
I’m not sure “status conflict” is the only possibility here; for example, the terminal value might be something like autonomy, or feeling genuinely listened to.
He is occasionally openly rebellious on a small scale. I suspect that being rebellious towards parents is a terminal value for many 10-year-old boys.
Good idea.
I suspect it’s a more important terminal value for 11-year-old boys, and yet more important for 12-year-olds… :-/
We have told him that other people will think less of him if he swears, that some words are attacks on groups and hearing these words will cause emotional discomfort to members of these groups, and that his swearing causes his mom some discomfort. I have told him that while I am not inherently bothered by him swearing, I don’t want him to do it around me because it will make it more likely that he will swear at school, but he claims that his swearing at home doesn’t increase the likelihood of him swearing at school.
Rationalists make bets. Is he ready to make a bet on this claim? (Framing this as “bet” could be better than framing it as a “punishment”. Of course there needs to be some reward if he wins the bet, otherwise there is no incentive.)
The 10 year old is probably risk averse on this, so would have good reason not to take such a bet—pretty much anything that he would lose for losing the bet is a loss that he wouldn’t be able to absorb, and no sane parent is going to give him a punishment that is small enough that he can absorb it. Of course, being a 10 year old, he wouldn’t use the term “risk-averse” and may phrase it in an awkward way or be unable to put his objection into coherent words at all, but that’s basically what he’d be doing.
So the fact that he would likely refuse such a bet (unless he is overly optimistic, also a possibility) won’t prove that he is wrong. As a parent, you could always lie and say “if you won’t take the bet, that means you don’t really believe it” but you would be lying, so whether you should do that depends on what you think about using bad reasoning to make kids obey.
On the other hand, it would be perfectly rationalist to say “I’m a grownup. I know how people, and especially kids, act. If I let you swear at home you will say it somewhere else, so no, I’m not going to let you swear at home.” You’re not criticizing his reasoning, you’re asserting that you have better priors than he does, and you most likely do.
Tough! Many adults fail to understand that they’re not perfect rational agents, so instead that their habits really matter. I guess on the bright side this could be a good opportunity to teach him that he should not encultivate habits that raise the psychic cost of virtuous behaviour, even if those habits are themselves not inherently vices.