People don’t generally have strong preferences about celestial objects. I really don’t understand why you think most people care about the sun qua the sun, as opposed to the things the sun provides.
Most people when faced with the choice to be more than twice as rich in new-earth, which they get to visualize and explore using the best of digital VR and sensory technology, with a fake sun indistinguishable for all intends and purposes from the real sun, will of course choose that over the attachment to maintaining that specific ball of plasma in the sky.
Side-note: Just registering that I personally aspire to always taboo ‘normal people’ and instead name to specific populations. I think it tends to sneak in a lot of assumptions to call people ‘normal’ – I’ve seen it used to mean “most people on Twitter” or “most people in developed countries” or “most working class people” or “most people alive today” – the latter of which is not at all normal by historical standards!
I expect non-positional material goods to be basically saturated for Earth people in a good post-Singularity world, so I don’t think you can promise them to become twice as rich. And also, people dislike drastic change and new things they don’t understand. 20% of the US population refused the potentially life-saving covid vaccine out of distrust of new things they don’t understand. Do you think they would happily move to a new planet with artificial sky maintained by supposedly benevolent robots? Maybe you could buy off some percentage of the population if material goods weren’t saturated, but surely not more than you could convince to get the vaccine? Also, don’t some religions (Islam?) have specific laws about what to do at sunrise and sunset and so on? Do you think all the imams would go along with moving to the new artificial Earth? I really think you are out of touch with the average person on this one, but we can go out to the streets and interview some people on the matter, though Berkeley is maybe not the most representative place for this.
(Again, if you are talking about cultural drift over millennia, that’s more plausible, though I’m below 50% they would dismantle the Sun. But I’m primarily arguing against dismantling the Sun within twenty years of the Singularity.)
Twenty years seems indeed probably too short, though it’s hard to say how post-singularity technology will affect things like public deliberation timelines.
My best guess is 200 years will very likely be enough.
I agree with you that there exist some small minority of people who will have a specific attachment to the sun, but most people just want to live good and fulfilling lives, and don’t have strong preferences about whether the sun in the sky is exactly 1 AU away and feels exactly like the sun of 3 generations past. Also, people will already experience extremely drastic change in the 20 years after the singularity, and my sense is marginal cost of change is decreasing, and this isn’t the kind of change that would most affect people’s lived experience.
To be clear, for me it’s a crux whether not dismantling the sun is basically committing everyone who doesn’t want to be uploaded to relative cosmic poverty. It would really suck if all remaining biological humans would be unable to take advantage of the vast majority of the energy in the solar system.
I am not at present compelled that the marginal galaxies are worth destroying the sun and earth for (though I am also not confident it isn’t, I feel confused about it, and also don’t know where most people would end up after having been made available post-singularity intelligence enhancing drugs and deliberation technologies, which to be clear not everyone would use, but most people probably would).
I maintain that biological humans will need to do population control at some point. If they decide that enacting the population control in the solar system at a later population leve is worth it for them to dismantle the Sun, then they can go for it. My guess is that they won’t, and will have population control earlier.
People don’t generally have strong preferences about celestial objects. I really don’t understand why you think most people care about the sun qua the sun, as opposed to the things the sun provides.
Most people when faced with the choice to be more than twice as rich in new-earth, which they get to visualize and explore using the best of digital VR and sensory technology, with a fake sun indistinguishable for all intends and purposes from the real sun, will of course choose that over the attachment to maintaining that specific ball of plasma in the sky.
Side-note: Just registering that I personally aspire to always taboo ‘normal people’ and instead name to specific populations. I think it tends to sneak in a lot of assumptions to call people ‘normal’ – I’ve seen it used to mean “most people on Twitter” or “most people in developed countries” or “most working class people” or “most people alive today” – the latter of which is not at all normal by historical standards!
Seems right, I used the language of the thread, but edited it since I agree.
I expect non-positional material goods to be basically saturated for Earth people in a good post-Singularity world, so I don’t think you can promise them to become twice as rich. And also, people dislike drastic change and new things they don’t understand. 20% of the US population refused the potentially life-saving covid vaccine out of distrust of new things they don’t understand. Do you think they would happily move to a new planet with artificial sky maintained by supposedly benevolent robots? Maybe you could buy off some percentage of the population if material goods weren’t saturated, but surely not more than you could convince to get the vaccine? Also, don’t some religions (Islam?) have specific laws about what to do at sunrise and sunset and so on? Do you think all the imams would go along with moving to the new artificial Earth? I really think you are out of touch with the average person on this one, but we can go out to the streets and interview some people on the matter, though Berkeley is maybe not the most representative place for this.
(Again, if you are talking about cultural drift over millennia, that’s more plausible, though I’m below 50% they would dismantle the Sun. But I’m primarily arguing against dismantling the Sun within twenty years of the Singularity.)
Twenty years seems indeed probably too short, though it’s hard to say how post-singularity technology will affect things like public deliberation timelines.
My best guess is 200 years will very likely be enough.
I agree with you that there exist some small minority of people who will have a specific attachment to the sun, but most people just want to live good and fulfilling lives, and don’t have strong preferences about whether the sun in the sky is exactly 1 AU away and feels exactly like the sun of 3 generations past. Also, people will already experience extremely drastic change in the 20 years after the singularity, and my sense is marginal cost of change is decreasing, and this isn’t the kind of change that would most affect people’s lived experience.
To be clear, for me it’s a crux whether not dismantling the sun is basically committing everyone who doesn’t want to be uploaded to relative cosmic poverty. It would really suck if all remaining biological humans would be unable to take advantage of the vast majority of the energy in the solar system.
I am not at present compelled that the marginal galaxies are worth destroying the sun and earth for (though I am also not confident it isn’t, I feel confused about it, and also don’t know where most people would end up after having been made available post-singularity intelligence enhancing drugs and deliberation technologies, which to be clear not everyone would use, but most people probably would).
I maintain that biological humans will need to do population control at some point. If they decide that enacting the population control in the solar system at a later population leve is worth it for them to dismantle the Sun, then they can go for it. My guess is that they won’t, and will have population control earlier.