This “let’s defeat the villain and everything will be OK” mentality is what made me skeptical of many aspects of liberalism. Many liberal-leaning activists choose a controversial topic (religion, gay marriage, abortion, immigration, etc.) and proclaim that the old system is evil, without a rational explanation why, and more importantly, without a rational explanation how their proposal would be better in the long term. If I ask for an explanation, I’m often labeled as “the enemy”.
It’s interesting, as I think that if liberalism were slower, I would likely be a liberal. If the liberal views were rationally discussed, and if serious research was being made to study the effects of these novel ideas on society after many generations, or if we just slowly introduced a few minor reforms first, and then observed how it affects the next generation, I would be among the very strong supporters of these liberal ideas.
Why I’m conservative-leaning? Because I hold the belief that while the proposals of liberals might bring the advantage of some personal freedoms, 1. these would be relative, so people would not feel happier and 2. they could have long-lasting negative side-effects of the society as a whole.
Why wasn’t I convinced by these ideas? Because they are used as ammunition, as things which “sound good”. The weight is not on scientific rigor, but about how nice the idea sounds to potential voters.
A (maybe a little extreme) example: A school wants to introduce the rule that teachers are not allowed to correct student’s essays with a red pen, because red is an aggressive color, it is abusive and it causes psychological trauma for the children. Or that they intentionally forbid children to call each other boys and girls, or even to forbid them the knowledge that any difference exists, just to erode the difference between genders, so that everyone should choose a gender later and not be “biased”. These seem to be suggested because they “sound good” for a liberal activist, but as I grew up while my essays were corrected with a red pen, and all other people I know grew up that way, and countless generations grew up that way, and none of us seem to have any psychological trauma because of this, I would oppose any such “novel ideas”, unless there was a serious study observing the long-lasting effects proving me wrong.
I know the evidence for some of my beliefs is mostly anecdotic, but even anecdotic evidence is better than no evidence at all.
I feel like you are using some hyperbole (or just exaggeration) here in a way that waters down your main point. For example, when you say “countless generations” were raised with specific gender identity templates like yours, and with public school teachers making corrections with red pen, you are talking about 8, I think, probably between 1870 and 2020, and only in the US?
The problems you’re describing don’t sound like “failure to make plans for after the villain is defeated” so much as “failure to accurately assess whether your target is a villain or not”. I think Zubon’s point is that even after you’ve found a real live villain and come up with a workable plan to defeat him, you’re still not done.
A villain is not necessarily a person or an institution. I was referring to people viewing certain social and cultural norms as “villains”, without any serious study into what long term effects the abolition of these norms would cause, or how an alternative norm they would propose instead of the old would fare in the long term.
I’m not claiming that a traditional norm is good solely because it’s traditional, I’m open to new ideas. However, I believe that in case of a conflict between an old and a new norm, the burden of proof lies on the new norm, especially if the old norm was keeping society functional for many generations, and the new wasn’t seen in effect in real life for long enough.
When a rigorous double-blind medical treatment study is made, sometimes it is canceled before the results are complete because the obvious result is unjust suffering. This is an application of trying to cause the least harm justified by the need for the knowledge.
That seems like it might be a reason for resistance to a slow approach in some cases.
This was “in my opinion” an element central to the political divisions that led to the civil war in the US.
There were alternatives other than “abolition of slavery with no restitution” under discussion, but there was no successful compromise.
An irreduceable plurality of the southern political class considered the loss of the economic and political power they had to be unjust suffering.
A majority of the Christian middle class in the north considered leaving another generation of chattel slaves to be bred and kept to be unjust suffering.
Between those two more extreme groups, the people interested in finding an organized peaceful compromise to replace the “evil” with “lesser evil” were defeated. To be fair, this was a failure that came after many compromise measures were tried, such as making it illegal to import slaves, but ok to breed them, and such as making it illegal to own slaves in some states, but making it also illegal to aid someone else’s slave in their escape.
The facts seem to indicate to me that there were influential groups for whom “further study” was not considered to be a sincere request, but only a tactic to get what their opposition wanted.
The northern pro-abolition extremists felt like the south only would recommend further study in order to keep what they had as long as possible.
The southern pro-slavery extremists felt like the north would only recommend further study in order to create another stick to beat them with in the political arena.
There was some evidence supporting these feelings on both sides.
So in summary, I think the civil war was a less effective way to solve the evil of chattel slavery, because the people of the US were unable to work together to build a lasting “then what” plan. This seems like it supports Zubon’s premise pretty well
I think they used to be slower up to 1968 or so. Things got a bit confused since then, since the general social change outcome of the era is broadly liberal, but one should not forget the radical students were e.g. Maoists which is not a liberal ideology at all. So it seems, that liberal changes are made not simply by liberals arguing for them (who may accept going slower) but as a way to de-fang left radicalism. Something similar is happening even today. Since liberal arguments against gay marriage exist, the push to go fast on it cannot possibly come from true liberalism but from some kind of a radical wing.
This radicalism is a but difficult to pin down today. Things were a bit easier back when Mao’s little red book was a student fashion item because you could more or less glean a clearly stated ideology and goals from it. Today it is a bit strange because a radicalism exists without a clear goal other than ending oppression, but that is not very clearly defined. Partially borrowings from anarchism can be identified. Intersectionality, kyriarchy sounds like to me ideas that were at least partially taken from anarchism. It is possible that today there is an form of an anarchist radicalism going on, but it is less clear than before as it does not really identify as one.
This idea came to me when I was reading Alfie Kohn’s articles. I have never seen him identify as an anarchist but still I know actual anarchists like his works, and they sound a lot like that kind of too-fast liberalism you complain about, so it is possible it is a kind of anarchist radicalism without the name.
Since liberal arguments against gay marriage exist, the push to go fast on it cannot possibly come from true liberalism
Surely that inference is wrong. It would be a reasonable deduction from “the liberal arguments against same-sex marriage are stronger than those in favour”, but not from “liberal arguments against same-sex marriage exist”. In fact, even the former would be dubious; the arguments might be strong but not generally known, for instance; or strong but not generally recognized as such.
My impression of the liberally-inclined people I know is that those who are aware of alleged liberal arguments against same-sex marriage generally think they’re bad arguments. So I think that for your inference to work, it would need to be true (1) that there are in fact good liberal arguments against same-sex marriage and (2) that being motivated by “true liberalism” implies being aware of all good arguments and evaluating them correctly. Of these, #1 is surely possible but #2 is absolutely ridiculous, no?
I had a quick look at the article linked above. It seems to me that its arguments against same-sex marriage are neither very good nor very liberal. Of course I could be wrong, but if I’m not crazy or stupid to evaluate them that way then they can’t show that my preference for “marriage equality” makes me part of, or deceived by, a radical wing rather than a “true liberal”.
I know grew up that way, and countless generations grew up that way, and none of us seem to have any psychological trauma because of this
How do you know? A lot of children enjoy learning before they go into school and then they stop enjoying it after the kind of feedback they get in school.
In my own experience pointing out errors in essays was seldom done in a way that helps learning. I would have profited a lot of a teacher telling me that it’s important to write more clearly. Instead the teacher frequently marked things as mistakes that were simply disagreements.
Or that they intentionally forbid children to call each other boys and girls, or even to forbid them the knowledge that any difference exists, just to erode the difference between genders, so that everyone should choose a gender later and not be “biased”.
Could you point to a school that does this, or is it simply a strawman?
One meta level deeper: to what extent is education largely about learning to putting up with enduring things you don’t like, and is that a good or bad idea or rather to what extent is good or bad? This aspect—discipline training etc. - can explain a predict a lot of these methods. So the point is to stop enjoying learning, then doing it anyway, in order to learn to be able to do not enjoyable things. How important is this as a skill? This is one of the biggest political-philosophical challenges in the last 2-300 years, because if we would assume human nature is all right, we would be roughly okay in following what we like, if we would assume it is rotten, then the most important learning would be to learn to defeat ourselves and do things that don’t feel good. I think there is an emerging consensus from Haidt to everywhere that human nature is more or less okay-ish in finding good goals but there is far too often the issue of being too lazy and distracted to follow them, and thus it may be useful if schools focus on overcoming that by forcing students to learn things they dislike learning.
I don’t think my teachers at school did effectively teach me discipline. A lot of them believed in the notion of talent instead of believing in a growth mindset where every student can achieve anything if they just put in enough time.
Teachers protect their own self image that way. If it’s all talent, then they aren’t to blame that the bad students don’t get it.
Because of the importance of discipline I myself started to set SMART goals and every day write down the percentage that of my goals that I achieved the last day (in 4 categories) under the label integrity.
I have never done a single SMART goal in school and it’s not something usually done or encouraged by the system.
There are jobs such as cleaning toilets that can be done well by people who just endure they tasks they are given. Most knowledge worker tasks on the other hand are preferably done by a person who likes doing them.
if we would assume it is rotten, then the most important learning would be to learn to defeat ourselves and do things that don’t feel good.
This “let’s defeat the villain and everything will be OK” mentality is what made me skeptical of many aspects of liberalism. Many liberal-leaning activists choose a controversial topic (religion, gay marriage, abortion, immigration, etc.) and proclaim that the old system is evil, without a rational explanation why, and more importantly, without a rational explanation how their proposal would be better in the long term. If I ask for an explanation, I’m often labeled as “the enemy”.
It’s interesting, as I think that if liberalism were slower, I would likely be a liberal. If the liberal views were rationally discussed, and if serious research was being made to study the effects of these novel ideas on society after many generations, or if we just slowly introduced a few minor reforms first, and then observed how it affects the next generation, I would be among the very strong supporters of these liberal ideas.
Why I’m conservative-leaning? Because I hold the belief that while the proposals of liberals might bring the advantage of some personal freedoms, 1. these would be relative, so people would not feel happier and 2. they could have long-lasting negative side-effects of the society as a whole.
Why wasn’t I convinced by these ideas? Because they are used as ammunition, as things which “sound good”. The weight is not on scientific rigor, but about how nice the idea sounds to potential voters.
A (maybe a little extreme) example: A school wants to introduce the rule that teachers are not allowed to correct student’s essays with a red pen, because red is an aggressive color, it is abusive and it causes psychological trauma for the children. Or that they intentionally forbid children to call each other boys and girls, or even to forbid them the knowledge that any difference exists, just to erode the difference between genders, so that everyone should choose a gender later and not be “biased”. These seem to be suggested because they “sound good” for a liberal activist, but as I grew up while my essays were corrected with a red pen, and all other people I know grew up that way, and countless generations grew up that way, and none of us seem to have any psychological trauma because of this, I would oppose any such “novel ideas”, unless there was a serious study observing the long-lasting effects proving me wrong.
I know the evidence for some of my beliefs is mostly anecdotic, but even anecdotic evidence is better than no evidence at all.
I feel like you are using some hyperbole (or just exaggeration) here in a way that waters down your main point. For example, when you say “countless generations” were raised with specific gender identity templates like yours, and with public school teachers making corrections with red pen, you are talking about 8, I think, probably between 1870 and 2020, and only in the US?
The problems you’re describing don’t sound like “failure to make plans for after the villain is defeated” so much as “failure to accurately assess whether your target is a villain or not”. I think Zubon’s point is that even after you’ve found a real live villain and come up with a workable plan to defeat him, you’re still not done.
A villain is not necessarily a person or an institution. I was referring to people viewing certain social and cultural norms as “villains”, without any serious study into what long term effects the abolition of these norms would cause, or how an alternative norm they would propose instead of the old would fare in the long term.
I’m not claiming that a traditional norm is good solely because it’s traditional, I’m open to new ideas. However, I believe that in case of a conflict between an old and a new norm, the burden of proof lies on the new norm, especially if the old norm was keeping society functional for many generations, and the new wasn’t seen in effect in real life for long enough.
When a rigorous double-blind medical treatment study is made, sometimes it is canceled before the results are complete because the obvious result is unjust suffering. This is an application of trying to cause the least harm justified by the need for the knowledge.
That seems like it might be a reason for resistance to a slow approach in some cases.
This was “in my opinion” an element central to the political divisions that led to the civil war in the US.
There were alternatives other than “abolition of slavery with no restitution” under discussion, but there was no successful compromise.
An irreduceable plurality of the southern political class considered the loss of the economic and political power they had to be unjust suffering.
A majority of the Christian middle class in the north considered leaving another generation of chattel slaves to be bred and kept to be unjust suffering.
Between those two more extreme groups, the people interested in finding an organized peaceful compromise to replace the “evil” with “lesser evil” were defeated. To be fair, this was a failure that came after many compromise measures were tried, such as making it illegal to import slaves, but ok to breed them, and such as making it illegal to own slaves in some states, but making it also illegal to aid someone else’s slave in their escape.
The facts seem to indicate to me that there were influential groups for whom “further study” was not considered to be a sincere request, but only a tactic to get what their opposition wanted.
The northern pro-abolition extremists felt like the south only would recommend further study in order to keep what they had as long as possible.
The southern pro-slavery extremists felt like the north would only recommend further study in order to create another stick to beat them with in the political arena.
There was some evidence supporting these feelings on both sides.
So in summary, I think the civil war was a less effective way to solve the evil of chattel slavery, because the people of the US were unable to work together to build a lasting “then what” plan. This seems like it supports Zubon’s premise pretty well
I think they used to be slower up to 1968 or so. Things got a bit confused since then, since the general social change outcome of the era is broadly liberal, but one should not forget the radical students were e.g. Maoists which is not a liberal ideology at all. So it seems, that liberal changes are made not simply by liberals arguing for them (who may accept going slower) but as a way to de-fang left radicalism. Something similar is happening even today. Since liberal arguments against gay marriage exist, the push to go fast on it cannot possibly come from true liberalism but from some kind of a radical wing.
This radicalism is a but difficult to pin down today. Things were a bit easier back when Mao’s little red book was a student fashion item because you could more or less glean a clearly stated ideology and goals from it. Today it is a bit strange because a radicalism exists without a clear goal other than ending oppression, but that is not very clearly defined. Partially borrowings from anarchism can be identified. Intersectionality, kyriarchy sounds like to me ideas that were at least partially taken from anarchism. It is possible that today there is an form of an anarchist radicalism going on, but it is less clear than before as it does not really identify as one.
This idea came to me when I was reading Alfie Kohn’s articles. I have never seen him identify as an anarchist but still I know actual anarchists like his works, and they sound a lot like that kind of too-fast liberalism you complain about, so it is possible it is a kind of anarchist radicalism without the name.
Surely that inference is wrong. It would be a reasonable deduction from “the liberal arguments against same-sex marriage are stronger than those in favour”, but not from “liberal arguments against same-sex marriage exist”. In fact, even the former would be dubious; the arguments might be strong but not generally known, for instance; or strong but not generally recognized as such.
My impression of the liberally-inclined people I know is that those who are aware of alleged liberal arguments against same-sex marriage generally think they’re bad arguments. So I think that for your inference to work, it would need to be true (1) that there are in fact good liberal arguments against same-sex marriage and (2) that being motivated by “true liberalism” implies being aware of all good arguments and evaluating them correctly. Of these, #1 is surely possible but #2 is absolutely ridiculous, no?
I had a quick look at the article linked above. It seems to me that its arguments against same-sex marriage are neither very good nor very liberal. Of course I could be wrong, but if I’m not crazy or stupid to evaluate them that way then they can’t show that my preference for “marriage equality” makes me part of, or deceived by, a radical wing rather than a “true liberal”.
How do you know? A lot of children enjoy learning before they go into school and then they stop enjoying it after the kind of feedback they get in school.
In my own experience pointing out errors in essays was seldom done in a way that helps learning. I would have profited a lot of a teacher telling me that it’s important to write more clearly. Instead the teacher frequently marked things as mistakes that were simply disagreements.
Could you point to a school that does this, or is it simply a strawman?
One meta level deeper: to what extent is education largely about learning to putting up with enduring things you don’t like, and is that a good or bad idea or rather to what extent is good or bad? This aspect—discipline training etc. - can explain a predict a lot of these methods. So the point is to stop enjoying learning, then doing it anyway, in order to learn to be able to do not enjoyable things. How important is this as a skill? This is one of the biggest political-philosophical challenges in the last 2-300 years, because if we would assume human nature is all right, we would be roughly okay in following what we like, if we would assume it is rotten, then the most important learning would be to learn to defeat ourselves and do things that don’t feel good. I think there is an emerging consensus from Haidt to everywhere that human nature is more or less okay-ish in finding good goals but there is far too often the issue of being too lazy and distracted to follow them, and thus it may be useful if schools focus on overcoming that by forcing students to learn things they dislike learning.
I don’t think my teachers at school did effectively teach me discipline. A lot of them believed in the notion of talent instead of believing in a growth mindset where every student can achieve anything if they just put in enough time.
Teachers protect their own self image that way. If it’s all talent, then they aren’t to blame that the bad students don’t get it.
Because of the importance of discipline I myself started to set SMART goals and every day write down the percentage that of my goals that I achieved the last day (in 4 categories) under the label integrity.
I have never done a single SMART goal in school and it’s not something usually done or encouraged by the system.
There are jobs such as cleaning toilets that can be done well by people who just endure they tasks they are given. Most knowledge worker tasks on the other hand are preferably done by a person who likes doing them.
Nobody benefits from you being depressed.