At the risk of sounding harsh, this sounds like an excuse rather than a problem.
The exercise suggested in the OP is quite straightforward: take a pen and paper, or bring up an empty text file in Notepad or TextEdit or whatever. Also take a kitchen timer. Set the timer to ten minutes.
At the top, write these words: “How do I want my life to affect me and other people?”
Start the timer. Spend the next ten minutes writing, not stopping to cross out or edit. That is the important part. Write, whatever happens. If you can’t think of a sincere answer, write an insincere one. Write something that you reject entirely for the first five minutes, then draw a horizontal line and spend the next five writing about what’s wrong with this insincere answer.
Do this exercise. Seriously. It will cost you only ten minutes and you will learn a lot from it. Also, you will have material that you can bring back to LW for further discussion.
I have this problem, too (and it doesn’t feel like an excuse to me, though I don’t as much class it as a problem as a fact about me, at this point), and this sounds like an interesting approach.
My answer would start with ‘For the most part I honestly don’t care, but...’.
You might have a “convince yourself that life is pointless” bias...
Something else that might help is to rephrase the question and ask what you would do.
If there was a button to safely stop a happy, healthy, responsible mother from getting hit by a car, would you push it? Or maybe, would you have pushed it in the past? Not do you care but would you push it?
If there were two buttons, one to make the tasty food in your house disappear, and one to make the garbage disappear, and you could only push one, which one would it be? Not do you care, but which one?
You could take your choices as evidence that some part of your brain might care. If you’re going to do these things anyway, and they don’t seem common-sensically-morally wrong, then why not try to care more about doing them?
You can do that by making a decision that your choices will follow a system. Being aware of the system, over time, the effect of cognitive dissonance resolution might just be that your emotions get more involved and you actually start caring more.
You might have a “convince yourself that life is pointless” bias...
I’d expect to be having trouble with general apathy and/or depression if that were the case, and I’m not. (I do experience a fair bit of apathy, but it’s the comfortable ‘hey, not my problem’ kind of apathy: not troublesome, actually very close to contentment.)
If there was a button to safely stop a happy, healthy, responsible mother from getting hit by a car, would you push it?
If it were convenient, sure. I wouldn’t go especially far out of my way to, though, in practice.
If there were two buttons, one to make the tasty food in your house disappear, and one to make the garbage disappear, and you could only push one, which one would it be? Not do you care, but which one?
This comes under ‘basic maintenance’, in my book. I’d be willing to devote as much energy to pushing the ‘remove garbage’ button as I’d be willing to put into cleaning my house the normal way (which is, um, not actually very much), and perhaps a little more for the novelty value.
You could take your choices as evidence that some part of your brain might care. If you’re going to do these things anyway, and they don’t seem common-sensically-morally wrong, then why not try to care more about doing them?
Why should I value ‘caring more’? I’m quite satisfied with my life as it is now.
(It might be useful to note for context that I appear to be a satisficing consequentialist by nature. ‘Good enough’ makes lots of sense to me, and most of the bits of the world that I seem most likely to be able to change are already good enough. The bits that aren’t good enough, I do put effort into fixing, including long-term effort. But the idea of having some sort of intentional long-term effect on things mostly just makes me go o.O)
that you viewed this as a problem, but I guess now that you were just continuing the already-established word choice.
ETA: Something to note… you seem to be distinguishing yourself by your aversion to effort:
“hey, not my problem” … “I wouldn’t go especially far out of my way to, though, in practice.” “as much energy … as I’d be willing to put into cleaning my house the normal way (which is, um, not actually very much)”
That doesn’t mean you care or feel strongly about avoiding effort moreso than the people your description aims to distinguish you from, but simply that you assign more negative utility to it.
Well, first lets think about what you want for yourself. My main suggestion is to consider the possibility that you want to feel a certain way… maybe feel happy, healthy, intellectually stimulated, loved...
When I first did this, I accepted that the answer was mine to give, and I could decide randomly if I wanted to (or didn’t want not to). For lack of a better idea, I made a list of small decision trends I exhibited that seemed instinctively desirable to me, like “going swimming”, or “eating oranges”. I made a “line of best fit” and concluded that I wanted my life to be intellectually and emotionally stimulating, when integrated over time. Then I gradually modified my disposition a little, to make this approximation more accurate.
I later realized that certain emotions like happiness were physically healthier and conflicted less with intellectual functioning, thus being instrumental to a) achieving a balance between emotional and intellectual stimuli, and b) living longer to experience more stimuli. It took longer to start realizing what I wanted for others, because that involves what they want, which is often more complicated and something I can’t measure directly. Nonetheless, I’ve found myself compelled in thought experiments to help others even when it wouldn’t result in positive experiences or memories for me, so some of my morals are definitely terminal (not in place just to serve my other values).
This was a very qualitative description, but nonetheless, it gave me some structure to build on and explore.
You might try a similar approach to finding what you want for yourself: extrapolate from trends you like, or maybe away from trends you don’t. Don’t worry about how “fundamental” this makes your choice… it’s your choice, you can make it however you want to, or don’t want not to ;)
I’d strongly encourage you to consider being happy and thoughtful as things you might want for yourself. Maybe look at this pyramid.
While you’re focussed on yourself like this in order to get started, do keep in mind an intention to examine morals in due time as well. They’re harder to figure out, but I’d say they’re worth it!
how you want your life to affect you and other people -
What if your primary problem is that you have no answer to this?
At the risk of sounding harsh, this sounds like an excuse rather than a problem.
The exercise suggested in the OP is quite straightforward: take a pen and paper, or bring up an empty text file in Notepad or TextEdit or whatever. Also take a kitchen timer. Set the timer to ten minutes.
At the top, write these words: “How do I want my life to affect me and other people?”
Start the timer. Spend the next ten minutes writing, not stopping to cross out or edit. That is the important part. Write, whatever happens. If you can’t think of a sincere answer, write an insincere one. Write something that you reject entirely for the first five minutes, then draw a horizontal line and spend the next five writing about what’s wrong with this insincere answer.
Do this exercise. Seriously. It will cost you only ten minutes and you will learn a lot from it. Also, you will have material that you can bring back to LW for further discussion.
Hear, hear!
I have this problem, too (and it doesn’t feel like an excuse to me, though I don’t as much class it as a problem as a fact about me, at this point), and this sounds like an interesting approach.
My answer would start with ‘For the most part I honestly don’t care, but...’.
You might have a “convince yourself that life is pointless” bias...
Something else that might help is to rephrase the question and ask what you would do.
If there was a button to safely stop a happy, healthy, responsible mother from getting hit by a car, would you push it? Or maybe, would you have pushed it in the past? Not do you care but would you push it?
If there were two buttons, one to make the tasty food in your house disappear, and one to make the garbage disappear, and you could only push one, which one would it be? Not do you care, but which one?
You could take your choices as evidence that some part of your brain might care. If you’re going to do these things anyway, and they don’t seem common-sensically-morally wrong, then why not try to care more about doing them?
You can do that by making a decision that your choices will follow a system. Being aware of the system, over time, the effect of cognitive dissonance resolution might just be that your emotions get more involved and you actually start caring more.
It happened to me, for reals :)
I’d expect to be having trouble with general apathy and/or depression if that were the case, and I’m not. (I do experience a fair bit of apathy, but it’s the comfortable ‘hey, not my problem’ kind of apathy: not troublesome, actually very close to contentment.)
If it were convenient, sure. I wouldn’t go especially far out of my way to, though, in practice.
This comes under ‘basic maintenance’, in my book. I’d be willing to devote as much energy to pushing the ‘remove garbage’ button as I’d be willing to put into cleaning my house the normal way (which is, um, not actually very much), and perhaps a little more for the novelty value.
Why should I value ‘caring more’? I’m quite satisfied with my life as it is now.
(It might be useful to note for context that I appear to be a satisficing consequentialist by nature. ‘Good enough’ makes lots of sense to me, and most of the bits of the world that I seem most likely to be able to change are already good enough. The bits that aren’t good enough, I do put effort into fixing, including long-term effort. But the idea of having some sort of intentional long-term effect on things mostly just makes me go o.O)
Ah, I got the impression when you said
that you viewed this as a problem, but I guess now that you were just continuing the already-established word choice.
ETA: Something to note… you seem to be distinguishing yourself by your aversion to effort:
That doesn’t mean you care or feel strongly about avoiding effort moreso than the people your description aims to distinguish you from, but simply that you assign more negative utility to it.
Good start. Next time, keep going for ten minutes. (It’s OK if you decide to keep the result to yourself instead of posting it as a comment.)
Well, first lets think about what you want for yourself. My main suggestion is to consider the possibility that you want to feel a certain way… maybe feel happy, healthy, intellectually stimulated, loved...
When I first did this, I accepted that the answer was mine to give, and I could decide randomly if I wanted to (or didn’t want not to). For lack of a better idea, I made a list of small decision trends I exhibited that seemed instinctively desirable to me, like “going swimming”, or “eating oranges”. I made a “line of best fit” and concluded that I wanted my life to be intellectually and emotionally stimulating, when integrated over time. Then I gradually modified my disposition a little, to make this approximation more accurate.
I later realized that certain emotions like happiness were physically healthier and conflicted less with intellectual functioning, thus being instrumental to a) achieving a balance between emotional and intellectual stimuli, and b) living longer to experience more stimuli. It took longer to start realizing what I wanted for others, because that involves what they want, which is often more complicated and something I can’t measure directly. Nonetheless, I’ve found myself compelled in thought experiments to help others even when it wouldn’t result in positive experiences or memories for me, so some of my morals are definitely terminal (not in place just to serve my other values).
This was a very qualitative description, but nonetheless, it gave me some structure to build on and explore.
You might try a similar approach to finding what you want for yourself: extrapolate from trends you like, or maybe away from trends you don’t. Don’t worry about how “fundamental” this makes your choice… it’s your choice, you can make it however you want to, or don’t want not to ;)
I’d strongly encourage you to consider being happy and thoughtful as things you might want for yourself. Maybe look at this pyramid.
While you’re focussed on yourself like this in order to get started, do keep in mind an intention to examine morals in due time as well. They’re harder to figure out, but I’d say they’re worth it!