Yeah a ton of bad things and stress tend to fuck up sleep and make us sleep less! That’s why there are all these correlations.. The rest of your arguments (bpm, cortisol..) apply fully to sports as well I believe.
re: not encountering info re dangers of oversleep: do you want to comment on the bit about sleep deprivation therapy? Isn’t this rather compelling evidence of sleep directly causing bad mood?
The rest of your arguments (bpm, cortisol..) apply fully to sports as well I believe.
I don’t think so. BPM is slower when one practices sports (see athletes heart), in that it will be higher during the activity itself, but mean BPM during the day and especially at night is lower.
Personally I’ve observed this correlation as well and it seems to be causal~ish, i.e I can do 3 days on / 3 days off physical activity and notice decreased resting & sleeping heart rate on the 2nd day of activity up until the 2nd day of inactivity after which it picks back up.
With cortisol, the mechanism I’m aware of is the same, i.e. exercising increases cortisol afterwards but decreases the baseline. Though here I’m not 100% sure.
This might not hold for the very extreme cases though (strongmen, ultra-marathon runners, etc). Since then you’re basically under physical stress for most of the day instead of a few minutes or hours.
re: not encountering info re dangers of oversleep: do you want to comment on the bit about sleep deprivation therapy? Isn’t this rather compelling evidence of sleep directly causing bad mood?
Sleep deprivation, I’d assume, would work through cortisol and adrenaline, which do give a “better than awfully depressed mood” but can’t build up to great moods and aren’t sustainable (at least if I am to trust models ala the one championed by Sapolsky about the effects of cortisol).
Granted, I think it depends, and afaik most people don’t feel the need to sleep more than 8-9 hours. The ones I know that “sleep” a lot tend to just hang around in a half-comatosed state after overeating or while procrastinating. I think it becomes an issue of “actual sleep” vs “waking up every 30 minutes, checking phone, remembering life is hard and trying to sleep again | rinse and repeat 2 to 8 times”.
I’d actually find it interesting to study “heavy sleepers” in a sleep lab or with a semi-capable portable EEG (even just 2-4 electrodes should be enough, I guess?) and see if what they do is actually “sleep” past the 9 hour mark. But I’m unaware of any such studies.
But I have low confidence in all of these claims and I personally dislike epidemiological evidence, I think that there’s a horrible practice of people trying to “”“control””” shitty experiments with made-up statistics models that come with impossible assumptions built-in. My main decisions about sleep come from pulse-oximeter based monitoring and correlating that with how I feel plus other biomarkers (planning to upgrade to an openbci based eeg soon, been holding out for a freeEEG32 for a while, but I see only radio silence around that). So ultimately the side I fall on is that I dislike the evidence on way or another and think that, much like anything that uses epidemiology as it’s almost sole source of evidence, you could just scrap the whole thing in favour of a personalized goal-oriented approach.
re: bpm. yeah i’m not saying never sleep or always undersleep. but if you undersleep one time, you’re going to have higher bpm and then on the recovery day it’s going to be normal
Ah, ok, maybe I was discussing the wrong thing then.
I think sleeping 4-6 hours on some days ought to be perfectly fine, even 0, I’d just argue that keeping the mean around 7-9 is probably ideal for most (but again, low confidence, think it boils down to personalized medicine).
Yeah a ton of bad things and stress tend to fuck up sleep and make us sleep less! That’s why there are all these correlations.. The rest of your arguments (bpm, cortisol..) apply fully to sports as well I believe.
re: not encountering info re dangers of oversleep: do you want to comment on the bit about sleep deprivation therapy? Isn’t this rather compelling evidence of sleep directly causing bad mood?
I don’t think so. BPM is slower when one practices sports (see athletes heart), in that it will be higher during the activity itself, but mean BPM during the day and especially at night is lower.
Personally I’ve observed this correlation as well and it seems to be causal~ish, i.e I can do 3 days on / 3 days off physical activity and notice decreased resting & sleeping heart rate on the 2nd day of activity up until the 2nd day of inactivity after which it picks back up.
With cortisol, the mechanism I’m aware of is the same, i.e. exercising increases cortisol afterwards but decreases the baseline. Though here I’m not 100% sure.
This might not hold for the very extreme cases though (strongmen, ultra-marathon runners, etc). Since then you’re basically under physical stress for most of the day instead of a few minutes or hours.
Sleep deprivation, I’d assume, would work through cortisol and adrenaline, which do give a “better than awfully depressed mood” but can’t build up to great moods and aren’t sustainable (at least if I am to trust models ala the one championed by Sapolsky about the effects of cortisol).
Granted, I think it depends, and afaik most people don’t feel the need to sleep more than 8-9 hours. The ones I know that “sleep” a lot tend to just hang around in a half-comatosed state after overeating or while procrastinating. I think it becomes an issue of “actual sleep” vs “waking up every 30 minutes, checking phone, remembering life is hard and trying to sleep again | rinse and repeat 2 to 8 times”.
I’d actually find it interesting to study “heavy sleepers” in a sleep lab or with a semi-capable portable EEG (even just 2-4 electrodes should be enough, I guess?) and see if what they do is actually “sleep” past the 9 hour mark. But I’m unaware of any such studies.
But I have low confidence in all of these claims and I personally dislike epidemiological evidence, I think that there’s a horrible practice of people trying to “”“control””” shitty experiments with made-up statistics models that come with impossible assumptions built-in. My main decisions about sleep come from pulse-oximeter based monitoring and correlating that with how I feel plus other biomarkers (planning to upgrade to an openbci based eeg soon, been holding out for a freeEEG32 for a while, but I see only radio silence around that). So ultimately the side I fall on is that I dislike the evidence on way or another and think that, much like anything that uses epidemiology as it’s almost sole source of evidence, you could just scrap the whole thing in favour of a personalized goal-oriented approach.
re: bpm. yeah i’m not saying never sleep or always undersleep. but if you undersleep one time, you’re going to have higher bpm and then on the recovery day it’s going to be normal
Ah, ok, maybe I was discussing the wrong thing then.
I think sleeping 4-6 hours on some days ought to be perfectly fine, even 0, I’d just argue that keeping the mean around 7-9 is probably ideal for most (but again, low confidence, think it boils down to personalized medicine).