The fact that one apple added to one apple invariably gives two apples....
It’s almost a tautology. What we have is an iterated identification. There are two objects that are named “apple,” they are identical in identification, but separate and distinct. This appears in time. I’m counting my identifications. The universality of 1+1 = 2 is a product of a single brain design. For an elephant, the same “problem” might be “food plus food equals food.”
Basically, you’re saying that for an elephant, apples behave like clouds, because the elephant has a concept of apple that is like our concept of cloud. (I hope real elephants aren’t this dumb). I like this a lot, it clarifies what I felt was missing from the cloud analogy.
Having it explicitly stated is helpful. It leads to the insight that at bottom, outside of directly useful concepts and into pure ontology/epistemology, there are no isolated individual integers. There is only relative magnitude on a broad continuum. This makes approaching QM much simpler.
Mmmm. This is all projected onto elephants, but maybe something like what you say. I was just pointing to a possible alternate processing mode. An elephant might well recognize quantity, but probably not through counting, which requires language. Quantity might be recognized directly, by visual comparison, for example. Bigger pile/smaller pile. More attraction vs. less attraction, therefore movement toward bigger pile. Or smell.
(So far I’ve downvoted many of your comments that contained what I believe to be confused/mystical thinking, dubious statements of unclear meaning that I expect can’t be made clear by unpacking (whatever their poetic qualities may be); also, for similar reasons, some conversations that I didn’t like taking place, mostly with chaosmosis, where I downvoted both sides.)
Thanks, Vladimir. From where does “what I believe” and what “I expect” come? What is the source of “I didn’t like”?
Would you be more specific? It could be helpful. (Somewhere if not here?)
I “retracted” the list post because it had three net downvotes and to see what “retract” accomplishes here, and because I’m willing to retract any ineffective communication, “right” and “wrong” have almost nothing to do with it. It was still a nice thing for chaosmosis to say.
Yeah, thanks, Alicorn. I’ve been “conferencing”—as we used to call it in the 80s—for a long time, and I know the problem. I actually love the up/down voting system here. I gives me some fairly fast feedback as to how I’m occurring to others. I’m primarily here to learn, and learning to communicate effectively in a new context has always brought rewards to me.
Ah, one more thing I’ll risk adding here. This is a Yudkowsky thread and discussing my posting may be seriously off-topic. I need to pay more attention to context.
LessWrong is like digression central. Someone will make a post talking about evolutionary psychology, and they’ll mention bow and arrows in an example, and then someone else will respond with a study about how bow and areas weren’t used until X date, and then a debate will happen, and then it will go meta, and then, etc.
Okay, I don’ t have to speculate or argue. I’m an alien, and I don’t consider it a “fact,” unless fact is defined to include the consequences of language. I.e, as an alien, I can see your process, and, within your process, I see that “1 + 1 = 2″ is generally useful to your survival. That I’ll accept as a fact. However, if you believe that 1 + 1 = 2 is a “fact,” such that 1 + 1 <> 2 is necessarily “false,” I think you might be unnecessarily limited, harming long-term survival.
It’s also useful to my survival, normally. Sometimes not. Sometimes 1 + 1 = 1, or 1 + 1 = 0, work better. I’m not kidding.
The AI worth thinking about is one which is greater than human, so that a human can recognize the limitation of fixed arithmetic indicates to me that a super-human AI would be able to do that or more.
It’s almost a tautology. What we have is an iterated identification. There are two objects that are named “apple,” they are identical in identification, but separate and distinct. This appears in time. I’m counting my identifications. The universality of 1+1 = 2 is a product of a single brain design. For an elephant, the same “problem” might be “food plus food equals food.”
Basically, you’re saying that for an elephant, apples behave like clouds, because the elephant has a concept of apple that is like our concept of cloud. (I hope real elephants aren’t this dumb). I like this a lot, it clarifies what I felt was missing from the cloud analogy.
Having it explicitly stated is helpful. It leads to the insight that at bottom, outside of directly useful concepts and into pure ontology/epistemology, there are no isolated individual integers. There is only relative magnitude on a broad continuum. This makes approaching QM much simpler.
Mmmm. This is all projected onto elephants, but maybe something like what you say. I was just pointing to a possible alternate processing mode. An elephant might well recognize quantity, but probably not through counting, which requires language. Quantity might be recognized directly, by visual comparison, for example. Bigger pile/smaller pile. More attraction vs. less attraction, therefore movement toward bigger pile. Or smell.
I can’t figure out why you’re getting downvotes though.
I’m doing something right.
I’m doing something wrong.
I write too much.
I don’t explain well enough.
It’s Thursday.
I have a strange name.
I’m Muslim.
I’m sensible.
I’m not.
It means nothing, which also means nothing.
Something else.
Thanks, chaosmosis, that was a nice thing to say. ….
(So far I’ve downvoted many of your comments that contained what I believe to be confused/mystical thinking, dubious statements of unclear meaning that I expect can’t be made clear by unpacking (whatever their poetic qualities may be); also, for similar reasons, some conversations that I didn’t like taking place, mostly with chaosmosis, where I downvoted both sides.)
Thanks, Vladimir. From where does “what I believe” and what “I expect” come? What is the source of “I didn’t like”?
Would you be more specific? It could be helpful. (Somewhere if not here?)
I “retracted” the list post because it had three net downvotes and to see what “retract” accomplishes here, and because I’m willing to retract any ineffective communication, “right” and “wrong” have almost nothing to do with it. It was still a nice thing for chaosmosis to say.
You do write unusually long comments and it’s slightly irritating (although I have not downvoted you so far).
Yeah, thanks, Alicorn. I’ve been “conferencing”—as we used to call it in the 80s—for a long time, and I know the problem. I actually love the up/down voting system here. I gives me some fairly fast feedback as to how I’m occurring to others. I’m primarily here to learn, and learning to communicate effectively in a new context has always brought rewards to me.
Ah, one more thing I’ll risk adding here. This is a Yudkowsky thread and discussing my posting may be seriously off-topic. I need to pay more attention to context.
LessWrong is like digression central. Someone will make a post talking about evolutionary psychology, and they’ll mention bow and arrows in an example, and then someone else will respond with a study about how bow and areas weren’t used until X date, and then a debate will happen, and then it will go meta, and then, etc.
I downvoted this one. HAHAHAHA. Chaotic neutral, my
friendassociate.In seriousness it was lengthy and not super humorous. Also, you’re Muslim.
Would you argue, then, that aliens or AIs might not discover the fact that 1 + 1 = 2, or even consider it a fact at all?
Okay, I don’ t have to speculate or argue. I’m an alien, and I don’t consider it a “fact,” unless fact is defined to include the consequences of language. I.e, as an alien, I can see your process, and, within your process, I see that “1 + 1 = 2″ is generally useful to your survival. That I’ll accept as a fact. However, if you believe that 1 + 1 = 2 is a “fact,” such that 1 + 1 <> 2 is necessarily “false,” I think you might be unnecessarily limited, harming long-term survival.
It’s also useful to my survival, normally. Sometimes not. Sometimes 1 + 1 = 1, or 1 + 1 = 0, work better. I’m not kidding.
The AI worth thinking about is one which is greater than human, so that a human can recognize the limitation of fixed arithmetic indicates to me that a super-human AI would be able to do that or more.