I really wish I could link to xkcd and leave. I really do.
*deep breath*
Okay. Let me take it point by point.
Point 0 - Three may keep a Secret, if two of them are dead.
In order for your claims to be true, hundreds of people would have to be involved. First, everyone involved in setting up the controlled demolition (no easy task) has to plan, prepare, and execute the task. Second, every witness has to be found and suppressed. Third, everyone in the chain of command to plan, order, and fund the project has to keep mum. Fourth, everyone whose job it is to monitor activities like this has to be kept quiet.
Now, all of this is supposed to be accomplished by the schlobs who couldn’t even hide the faking of evidence that Saddam Hussein had WMDs?
Point 1 - Building implosions don’t look like that
You argue that they could.
Sure. And computers could be built using balanced ternary notation. But to do so with the skill that is brought to the standard method would require a tremendous amount of work to avoid error—work which plays again into Point 0.
Besides, several groups have analyzed the collapses after the event and found them consistent with the mainstream narrative. Requiring that these analyses be false means either inducting them into the conspiracy (Point 0), designing the collapse so effectively that it appears to be due to the obvious factors (see Point 2), or—probably—both.
Point 2 - How could you plan in advance the exact point of impact?
You say that they intentionally detonated the explosives near the point of impact. This implies that there are explosives near the point of impact. This implies—unless you think they knew the point of impact—there are explosives throughout the building. Besides immensely complicating the task of setting these explosives (see Point 0), this would either require that the explosives be left over at the crash site and need quiet disposal (see Point 0) or that they all be detonated during the collapse (which would be very loud—and the sound of these explosions are not reported by witnesses*).
Honestly, I’d love to believe I was imagining things and that it happened the way they said it did. The alternative is truly frightening and disheartening—but I can’t convince myself that it isn’t a more accurate description of reality, based on the available evidence.
I could answer each of your arguments, but that’s not the point of this thread; the point was to answer the original request for something which I “consider proven beyond any possibility of doubt by both empirical evidence and pure logic, and yet saying it triggers automatic stream of rationalizations in other people”. As I said before, the bulk of the counter-arguments I have seen thus far have been flawed at best, and strike me quite firmly as rationalizations.
Nonetheless, I’ll be happy to continue answering your points (well, not happy happy, it’s not like I have the time to kill, but I recognize that I threw down the gauntlet on this one so I have a sort of obligation not to walk away unless it’s by mutual consent; to do otherwise would be a tacit admission that I can’t really counter your points and am just hand-waving) -- but I suspect that to do so in the face of your distaste for it (and the negative points I’ve received—were my comments inappropriate or off-topic? I apologize, if so) would be somewhat sociopathic, and I don’t wish to further reduce my site-karma
Maybe you’re right, maybe it is rational to believe the official story. My statement is an opinion—but as it is an assertion of fact rather than a matter of personal taste, it can still be wrong, and I’m not making the claim you imply I am making (that it’s an opinion and therefore not arguable).
Your links to ShortPacked and XKCD are essentially argument by ridicule, by the way, not a counterargument (and the ShortPacked is also a straw man, since you imply a position which I do not take on this issue) -- though I do understand them as an expression of your frustration, given the apparent firmness of your belief in this matter.
There is one point which I can’t allow to stand, however: you say “every human being who has brought numbers to the table has confirmed the simple, obvious story of events.” I don’t know where you came across that claim, but it is completely and stunningly untrue. Where did you find it?
You’re right about the comic strip links, or, at least, about the Shortpacked! one—I was being a jerk, and your arguments don’t deserve that. (The xkcd one I would stand by, if it weren’t assuming as true the precise thing we are in disagreement about—in general, the rise of conspiracy theories is only marginally associated with the existence of a conspiracy, and I do consider the controlled demolition story about 9/11 to be a conspiracy theory, but that doesn’t make it false. Particularly given the known track record of the second Bush administration.)
Do you have a Livejournal or Dreamwidth account? Or an OpenID account? Moving the conversation off-site would eliminate the risk of distortions to our individual LessWrong karmas, not to mention we could more easily agree to drop the subject without feeling like we’re letting down our side.
An excellent suggestion, and one which I had been considering making too.
Yes, both—I even set up a DW community not long ago which would be appropriate for further discussion on this topic. (The group itself is heavily under-utilized due to my not having had time to post much, let alone promote it, so this seems like a perfect opportunity to generate some content and discussion.).
I’ve posted a series of blog entries on this subject here, and will be responding to your objections next.
I really wish I could link to xkcd and leave. I really do.
*deep breath*
Okay. Let me take it point by point.
Point 0 - Three may keep a Secret, if two of them are dead.
In order for your claims to be true, hundreds of people would have to be involved. First, everyone involved in setting up the controlled demolition (no easy task) has to plan, prepare, and execute the task. Second, every witness has to be found and suppressed. Third, everyone in the chain of command to plan, order, and fund the project has to keep mum. Fourth, everyone whose job it is to monitor activities like this has to be kept quiet.
Now, all of this is supposed to be accomplished by the schlobs who couldn’t even hide the faking of evidence that Saddam Hussein had WMDs?
Point 1 - Building implosions don’t look like that
You argue that they could.
Sure. And computers could be built using balanced ternary notation. But to do so with the skill that is brought to the standard method would require a tremendous amount of work to avoid error—work which plays again into Point 0.
Besides, several groups have analyzed the collapses after the event and found them consistent with the mainstream narrative. Requiring that these analyses be false means either inducting them into the conspiracy (Point 0), designing the collapse so effectively that it appears to be due to the obvious factors (see Point 2), or—probably—both.
Point 2 - How could you plan in advance the exact point of impact?
You say that they intentionally detonated the explosives near the point of impact. This implies that there are explosives near the point of impact. This implies—unless you think they knew the point of impact—there are explosives throughout the building. Besides immensely complicating the task of setting these explosives (see Point 0), this would either require that the explosives be left over at the crash site and need quiet disposal (see Point 0) or that they all be detonated during the collapse (which would be very loud—and the sound of these explosions are not reported by witnesses*).
* Thank you, NIST, for pointing out this argument in the video review of your WTC 7 analysis.
I don’t expect to convince you. You have your opinion, and opinions are never wrong. But engineering is done with numbers—and every human being who has brought numbers to the table has confirmed the simple, obvious story of events.
Honestly, I’d love to believe I was imagining things and that it happened the way they said it did. The alternative is truly frightening and disheartening—but I can’t convince myself that it isn’t a more accurate description of reality, based on the available evidence.
I could answer each of your arguments, but that’s not the point of this thread; the point was to answer the original request for something which I “consider proven beyond any possibility of doubt by both empirical evidence and pure logic, and yet saying it triggers automatic stream of rationalizations in other people”. As I said before, the bulk of the counter-arguments I have seen thus far have been flawed at best, and strike me quite firmly as rationalizations.
Nonetheless, I’ll be happy to continue answering your points (well, not happy happy, it’s not like I have the time to kill, but I recognize that I threw down the gauntlet on this one so I have a sort of obligation not to walk away unless it’s by mutual consent; to do otherwise would be a tacit admission that I can’t really counter your points and am just hand-waving) -- but I suspect that to do so in the face of your distaste for it (and the negative points I’ve received—were my comments inappropriate or off-topic? I apologize, if so) would be somewhat sociopathic, and I don’t wish to further reduce my site-karma
Maybe you’re right, maybe it is rational to believe the official story. My statement is an opinion—but as it is an assertion of fact rather than a matter of personal taste, it can still be wrong, and I’m not making the claim you imply I am making (that it’s an opinion and therefore not arguable).
Your links to ShortPacked and XKCD are essentially argument by ridicule, by the way, not a counterargument (and the ShortPacked is also a straw man, since you imply a position which I do not take on this issue) -- though I do understand them as an expression of your frustration, given the apparent firmness of your belief in this matter.
There is one point which I can’t allow to stand, however: you say “every human being who has brought numbers to the table has confirmed the simple, obvious story of events.” I don’t know where you came across that claim, but it is completely and stunningly untrue. Where did you find it?
You’re right about the comic strip links, or, at least, about the Shortpacked! one—I was being a jerk, and your arguments don’t deserve that. (The xkcd one I would stand by, if it weren’t assuming as true the precise thing we are in disagreement about—in general, the rise of conspiracy theories is only marginally associated with the existence of a conspiracy, and I do consider the controlled demolition story about 9/11 to be a conspiracy theory, but that doesn’t make it false. Particularly given the known track record of the second Bush administration.)
Do you have a Livejournal or Dreamwidth account? Or an OpenID account? Moving the conversation off-site would eliminate the risk of distortions to our individual LessWrong karmas, not to mention we could more easily agree to drop the subject without feeling like we’re letting down our side.
An excellent suggestion, and one which I had been considering making too.
Yes, both—I even set up a DW community not long ago which would be appropriate for further discussion on this topic. (The group itself is heavily under-utilized due to my not having had time to post much, let alone promote it, so this seems like a perfect opportunity to generate some content and discussion.).
I’ve posted a series of blog entries on this subject here, and will be responding to your objections next.
Excellent—my account name is “packbat” on both. I will read your remarks soon and attempt a reply.
“Packbat”? That is outrageously cute, have a karma point.
(: