I think jkaufman and the wikipedia entry cited are making a claim that natural rights exist, and should be afforded to humans and animals. I think this claim is in error, and arguments based on this claim will also be in error. But if no claim of natural rights is made, then the possibility opens to explain a difference between humans and other animals. I say again: difference. Not better, not worse, not within-rights, only different. That difference is that humans make laws and animals do not make laws.
You say some humans don’t make laws for cultural reasons. Can you see the paradox within that single sentence? Differentiating laws from ‘formal laws’ is a true Scotsman sort of argument. Call it cultural or call it formal laws, there are things the hunter gatherer groups you mention do that no animal does.
Moreover, there’s no coherent step to get from “humans make laws” to “therefore our laws should only apply to humans or should treat humans and animals differently.”
I did not say anything about how humans should treat each other or how humans should treat animals. ‘Should’ is a natural law sort of a word, and that’s what I’m claiming does not exist.
I am often wrong or inarticulate or both, and I thank you for the chance to clarify. What might seem to some a difference between humans and animals is a confusion between laws (which humans make and animals don’t) and natural law (which does not exist for humans or animals). Here I think you and I might be in agreement: there’s no line between humans and animals in this regard. All us critters share that lack of something.
I think jkaufman and the wikipedia entry cited are making a claim that natural rights exist
I’m a utilitarian; I’m not claiming anything about rights. The question of “moral status” to me is whether something should get included when aggregating utility.
I don’t think utilitarians should prefer torture over dust specks. Dust specks are such an infinitesimally minor amount of disutility that even if they happen to 3^^^3 people, it’s still much better than being tortured even for one minute.
The general argument is one of net suffering. The trouble is that weird things happen when you try to assign values to suffering, add those together across multiple agents, etc. On the one hand, we should avoid scope insensitivity. On the other hand, the assertion that adding up 3^^^3 dust specs is worse than 50 years of torture packs in quite a few other assertions (that suffering should be added linearly across all agents and all types of suffering, for one).
You say some humans don’t make laws for cultural reasons. Can you see the paradox within that single sentence? Differentiating laws from ‘formal laws’ is a true Scotsman sort of argument. Call it cultural or call it formal laws, there are things the hunter gatherer groups you mention do that no animal does.
Actually, if you want to generalize laws to mean just enforced cultural norms, then yes, these exist among animals as well. Different groups of bonobos or chimpanzees have different behavioral sets, including to what extent violence is tolerated in that specific group to in-group members.
Thank you for your reply, JoshuaZ.
I think jkaufman and the wikipedia entry cited are making a claim that natural rights exist, and should be afforded to humans and animals. I think this claim is in error, and arguments based on this claim will also be in error. But if no claim of natural rights is made, then the possibility opens to explain a difference between humans and other animals. I say again: difference. Not better, not worse, not within-rights, only different. That difference is that humans make laws and animals do not make laws.
You say some humans don’t make laws for cultural reasons. Can you see the paradox within that single sentence? Differentiating laws from ‘formal laws’ is a true Scotsman sort of argument. Call it cultural or call it formal laws, there are things the hunter gatherer groups you mention do that no animal does.
I did not say anything about how humans should treat each other or how humans should treat animals. ‘Should’ is a natural law sort of a word, and that’s what I’m claiming does not exist.
I am often wrong or inarticulate or both, and I thank you for the chance to clarify. What might seem to some a difference between humans and animals is a confusion between laws (which humans make and animals don’t) and natural law (which does not exist for humans or animals). Here I think you and I might be in agreement: there’s no line between humans and animals in this regard. All us critters share that lack of something.
I’m a utilitarian; I’m not claiming anything about rights. The question of “moral status” to me is whether something should get included when aggregating utility.
Clearly not a utilitarian enough to prefer torture over dust specks.
I don’t think utilitarians should prefer torture over dust specks. Dust specks are such an infinitesimally minor amount of disutility that even if they happen to 3^^^3 people, it’s still much better than being tortured even for one minute.
I don’t think you really get how big 3^^^3 is.
The general argument is one of net suffering. The trouble is that weird things happen when you try to assign values to suffering, add those together across multiple agents, etc. On the one hand, we should avoid scope insensitivity. On the other hand, the assertion that adding up 3^^^3 dust specs is worse than 50 years of torture packs in quite a few other assertions (that suffering should be added linearly across all agents and all types of suffering, for one).
What if you replaced 3^^^3 with BusyBeaver(3^^^3), or BusyBeaver(BusyBeaver(3^^^3))?
Actually, if you want to generalize laws to mean just enforced cultural norms, then yes, these exist among animals as well. Different groups of bonobos or chimpanzees have different behavioral sets, including to what extent violence is tolerated in that specific group to in-group members.