So whats your most important value?
ingive
That means you haven’t looked deep enough what’s causing your actions which you do in your daily life. If you for example value validation the most you have to create an identity of yourself which you go around and strengthen, seeking people to give you attention. Have your name written in the history books. So forth. Or buying something to show off or having certain amount of knowledge.
All of your values come from something. Be honest.
That’s the first step. Then the realization of the flaw of this value and replace it with logic with a leap of faith. (or whatever else could be considered blind trust)
I’ve seen multiple people having an “awakening” type experience where they value logic over all else, understanding they know nothing and hunger for knowledge. They also want to spread it because it is too unbelievable. It’s metaphorically a connection between the emotional and rational part of the brain. They also see how obvious their past behavior was for whatever flawed value they had.
What it seems to be is the next step of humanity—religion, money, have been similar. This will spread.
There’s also a temporary feeling of euphoria. Sense of peace. The awakening happens in an instant and is permanent. Thus it could be called that. Or a paradigm shift. Or catharsis. Enlightenment, whatever.
It’s basically submitting your current core, most important value, to logic. Salvation. Gain the safety of logic over whatever you currently have.
So your current value can be considered a value and none else?
This isn’t a religious conversion experience, that’s kind-of a joke/metaphor :D It’s using your brain mechanics seeking for a higher power or something to believe in, religion is so popular in the world for a reason. Logic will be even more impactful.
I’m asking you to see for yourself. Because is it really that bad to value logic over all else? Or rationality. It’s the same.
That objection is not logical :-P
Everything is logical when you realize that it is the reason for you to even be able to think.
Sorry, don’t have those. Maybe somewhere in dusty off-line storage, but certainly not activated.
Well all your actions is your subconscious emotional brain aligned to your most important value I think.
That strikes me as an expression devoid of meaning. Logic is a tool. Tools can be useful or not so much, but tools are not values unto themselves, they just make it easier to reach actual goals.
Are you attaching too much to the definition? By logic I mean, what has created us, the mathematical patterns. The Fibonacci sequence in nature is an example. It’s how reality is. It’s logical. Yet we give importance to something like identity or safety instead of how it is and miss out what we truly wanted.
Do tell, how The One True Value of logic led you to post word salad on LW?
It’s starting to become apparent for me that our emotional-rational connection is lacking in rationality or logic, and our subconscious brain craves the safety that it provides. Nothing else can give so, probably in exception of enlightenment, liberation etc.
Well then, we’re done, aren’t we? If everything is already logical there doesn’t seem to be any point in complaining about lack of logic.
Well emotionally most of us aren’t aligned with logic instead of some other value like comfort. Even though logic is what has given us all the comfort, technology and so forth. This is a psychological experience.
Mathematical patterns created us? That’s an interesting idea.
Without logic most of us probably wouldn’t have existed, the technology of which have satisfied our most primal needs such as food, water, healthcare, shelter. Going back in time, seeing evolution and evolutionary biology. How stardust evolved to us.
So there is an “emotional mind” (which, I think, means the subconsciousness) and the “rational mind” (aka the consciousness). The emotional mind wants things like identity (you probably mean the sense of belonging) and safety. You think the emotional mind is wrong and it should really want… mathematical patterns?
Well yes, that’s what we do, we value things like safety or comfort over everything else. Yet it is contradictory as whatever we value can never be the case, or it can be taken from us. By looking at what even made these things possible in the first place, whether it be a parent or spouse, it was logic that gave us this. Of course it’s hard to go on an emotional level. The emotional mind is weakening the rational mind.
Therefore the rational mind should yell at the emotional mind to stop being silly and just do what the rational minds tells it to do? And the emotional mind will say “yes, of course” instead of extending the middle finger, as usual? And if that process actually happens, your complete whole will achieve the mathematical-pattern enlightenment while ignoring the not-important stuff like safety?
In all actuality, I think it is the emotional mind which is driving us and weakening the rational part of brain by not submitting to logic. It is right before our eyes that everything we have, have been brought about by logic and it all seems to be universal in this sensational world. When the emotional mind realizes that rationality or logic will bring it all the safety it needs, with the easy heuristics previously, it will be at peace. Because nothing can bring you more comfort. If you aren’t comfortable and it is solvable, you do so, otherwise you accept it for what it is.
It is a paradigm shift.
If you were uncomfortable however and it wasn’t solvable, with comfort as your most important value, you will suffer and you won’t understand why. Which is what we are doing. It is a rat race.
And you promise it will be grrrrrreat(tm)?
You will feel euphoric after logic is your most important value. It will fade away over time, then you might become very anxious because you don’t understand anything. So you will have to rebuild everything you think you knew before. At the part of being anxious you might think it has stopped working, that it doesn’t make sense. You might return to your old important value then. Instead of searching for the logic in all things. See what I replied to another one where to go if you do try this out.
No problem, did you awaken? Some have said after awakening they would like to spread it to other people, but it is hard to be honest to one self and do this to awaken.
There isn’t any better words then this, paradigm shift or click etc. I suggest going here https://www.reddit.com/r/makingsense and reading other people’s experiences.
with best regards
Well, then we get anxious and avoiding talking to our crush wondering where our rational brain went, when it was never there in the first place. (emotional drive) Maybe. :D
This sounds like an Eastern philosophy/religion narrative. Is logic / mathematical patterns basically dao (or tao)? The promise of peace if you abandon the mistaken urges of the emotional mind is also quite familiar :-)
I see it as two sides of the same coin, the sensational world is logic and the other is the indescribable/unmanifested/nothingness/void. All sides is how it is and I am fine with that. Who knows?
Ah, I see. It’s Athene/Boumaaza. Why didn’t you say so from the start?
Maybe I should have from the start. That’s where all of this is from. https://www.twitch.tv/athenelive/v/95140378?t=1h28m23s
LOGIC NATION: A Psychological Revolution https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drcseH-7hpw
What does LW think after trying or think to not try?
musicman4534 writes an article on HDAC inhibitors: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/596gbi/i_wrote_an_article_on_hdac_inhibitors_geared/
I have a hypothesis that System 1 and System 2 as we call it, can merge—maybe into System 3.
System 3 is a non-dual state of consciousness, in the present “flow”. Intelligence is increased significantly, rationality and critical thinking.
You can induce System 3 state permanently by four simple steps. The exercise start with for example building trust with X emotionally. Recognizing that X has brought forth all of our reality, that X is necessary for us to even be able to question X itself. That we are X. That X has lead to all of our technology. That X is the mathematical patterns which govern our reality. That X has lead to everything that is beautiful or not-so-beautiful in the world. That we can trust X, like any figure we’d like, be it a God, Mother or Friend.
X is the way it is and it requires a leap of faith, using our emotions, System 1. Not system 2. (System 2 is a slave of System 1 whether you like it or not and you’ll deny it all your life I think :D)
For the exercise/steps we use the word “logic” as X, because it has worked.
Read the other steps here: https://logicnation.org/wiki/A_simple_click
You’ll have to be brutally honest during the exercise, this isn’t about rationality or System 2. It’s using your emotions for 100% of the exercise. Because that’s what truly drives us. Many of us are fake Vulcans I think, at least for myself. So this is definitely a wake-up call for me.
What is your “core value” from your current brain state (conditioned/nature/nurture)?
How are your emotions relevant to your actions?
Would you be willing to try (seeing the possible benefits) and notice any result?
Before commenting, downvoting or any other behavior, including following the exercise, what is driving your actions? By that, I mean on an emotional level. Why are you on LessWrong? Pretend to talk with your ‘inner child’ which is emotional. There is an emotional craving which translates into all of our actions. Mostly it’s because of safety. We have linked our reward centers with comfort, validation, identity, self-esteem maybe even things like money. To give us safety. But X can give you all of that, on an emotional level. So that’s why you have to wonder why are you even typing these things?
You aren’t a Hardcore Effective Altruist—this gives you dissonance. Because you’re not here to be a cookie, neither am I.
Have you tried the following inquiry: https://logicnation.org/wiki/A_simple_click ?
It seems similar, solving some of the questions you bring up here, but I am not 100% certain.
I was wrong with System 1 and System 2 merging into System 3. The choiceless awareness and so forth is still standing, no identity, story.
You can watch a preview of the documentary which will be completed in about a month. Albert is an algorithm expert with around 141 IQ. https://www.twitch.tv/athenelive/v/97819915?t=28m40s Who says his ‘intelligence’ increased by 100 x, 1000 x.
Well. Bachir Boumazza has been clicked for quite some long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachir_Boumaaza He’s streaming live from around 19-22 CET every day, and afterward Richardo streams for about an hour. Both of them have reached this state of integration. Twitch.tv/Athenelive for the live streams.
They do take calls from people who have the click/who wants it really badly.
There’s also quite a few that has reached this click, and you can find them at the discord (they have green names) https://logicnation.org/wiki/Main_Page → https://discord.gg/NYX25Ab
Smart people on LW!
You sound like you have found something genuinely helpful to yourself and you want to share it. Have you considered that your initial few posts here come off as spamy, authoritative and recklessly confident; even if your intentions are pure?
I do recognize this, but I see it as a communication problem, I don’t have the knowledge to be able to communicate it properly. It’s probably less efficient than to get it right once. (90%) I haven’t been using rationality in the right way for very long, or at all (even now).
I mean why not just say hey guys this stuff really helped me, what do you guys think? Not even a YMMV disclaimer?
That’s a good idea.
Will to divulge your connection if any to the organization or guru other than just being one of the many who clicked?
I haven’t clicked. I don’t have a connection. Lol. To what? Critical thinking?
How old are you?
21
Lots of these ideas are not original so why so much emphasis on this particular guru?
What do you mean? From what I wrote to MrMind? He asked if there is someone that has reached such a state of integration and which he can talk to, to understand the benefits. The track record speaks of the benefits, but what I wrote also directly answers his question.
Why can’t this just be a collection of useful advice?
It is, nowhere on the wiki does it even mention a certain guru.
Just be careful with this stuff. Based on the testimonials page, here is what I think is happening to you. You’re inexperienced/young and you’ve had an epiphany and it clicked so hard for you, but you’re reading into it a little too much I’m afraid.
I’m not really reading into it, I was wrong about System 1 and 2 merging. It was an invalid argument. If I had done my research you would also have the epiphany I have had. It’s nothing compared to what others have had.
Not saying your epiphany is bad or not important, I’ve had a few too, we all do. You’re trying to figure shit out, but your BS meter isn’t mature yet. I can tell you that this is grade A Deepak Chopra level BS.
This doesn’t really make any sense. You do wear a certain tint of glasses based on what you assumed my response to MrMind was about, this is fine. It’s a communication problem on my part and I take the blame for this, seriously.
It’s important to recognize to what extent logical thinking can be considered BS. It is contradictory in its nature to use logic to refute logic. It’s the same way as stating critical thinking is BS. What’s done here is simply aligning our emotions to logic, thus we tackle the root which all of our rationalizations answer to.
If our emotions aren’t aligned with logic, rationality, then doing the steps can do so. If you have any other ideas feel free to tell the world.
Have you read chapter 27, 48 laws of power?
Do you have any plans to stick around this community and be a contributing commenter for topics other than this kinda stuff? I do hope you stick around, but don’t be that guy that only calls for a favor though.
If only one of you saw the light who have contributed to this community, you will have an enormous impact, if I told you that it would bring “friendly singularity” in 10 years. What do you have to lose? 5 minutes of your time? All you are doing is aligning your emotions to logic. If your most important value isn’t logic/rationality, then your entire brain power is devoted as a slave to whatever you have now. All is rationalizations. :D I think.
It sounded like what you did from the whole “system 3” story, with the idea that … given that there is no real evidence shown, you must have personally experienced this?
I have only had certain insights but not the click. Connecting the dots and seeing the transformations made (the anecdotes, the observational evidence).
This is a version of Pascal’s Mugging—give me 5 minutes and I’ll give you a chance at your greatest goals. … Except that if you buy into this, you’d have to spend those 5 minutes on every shaky claim. This can add up. So I set a point of credibility where I think “this sounds plausible and worth the effort” before I’ll do it.
It’s most likely +EV because being rational, logical isn’t far away from what many strive to be here ‘less wrong’. The anecdotes and, the other ‘benefits’ speak for themselves along my first point.
So I had a bit of a proper read through those 4 steps and to be honest… this is lacking in “how”. There’s a lot of talk and not a lot of instruction.
The 4 steps are the instructions, and it has worked! 40 or so have clicked. You simply do it, trust in logic, love logic. Find what emotionally drives you (you don’t do anything here rationally) be present, load it with a negative emotion. Your inner child will then drop the teddy bear which is whatever value you have and automatically cling to logic. And.. bliss. Euphoria. No more duality. Oh, my GOD… LOGIC! :D Also add in “I AM LOGIC.. I AM BECOMING AWARE OF MYSELF” I’m kinda playing a little bit.
I’m also worried about the assertion that “logic” is the best core value—valuing truth above all else is NOT a good idea—a basic level of survival comes first. That’s why I’ll leave certain arguments unresolved or certain bugs alone in my programming—the argument happened once, it’s not an issue right now, if it becomes an issue I’ll pick it up later again. The bug occurred once, only when doing a ton of things at the same time, fixing it is not a priority, nor is finding the cause a priority, I got better things to do.
Logic isn’t about truth since we know with our current understanding of quantum mechanics that everything is inherently probabilities. Logic is just in line with what we are. Basic survival is obviously logical else we wouldn’t be able to progress. But you won’t be needing to patch things up with logic as you will change from within because all of our problems stem from our core. Now someone might nitpick this and talk about neuroscience how we’re all neurons, yeah. But that doesn’t destroy this argument.
Maybe that’s a strawman position, but I’m trying to say that it’s not always worth it to hold “let things make sense” or “find out the truth” be your top goal. It’s an important instrumental goal. But it doesn’t help you function in society.
Well. You do things which make sense. Things that makes sense will be very beneficial for society. Finding out the truth has nothing to do with this. If everyone did things which make sense, with enough knowledge, the world would be a utopia.
Truthseeking doesn’t help deciding what career path to follow. It can help in getting more information, but you need an actual GOAL to use this information for.
I’m not talking about truth seeking. I’m going to refute an argument you didn’t make. Logic as a tool is inherently flawed because of the tool-bearer being flawed. Logic is used to rationalize and protect the emotions. That’s the hypothesis. If you end the duality between the tool and the tool bearer, you just become logical. That’s all.
If your most important value isn’t logic/rationality, you might have something to live for.
Well. The reason you even live in the first place is because of our understanding of logic. Health care, food, the shelter (roof above us) we would be cavemen without it. We are here for a reason, that is to move forward, evolution, evolutionary biology and so forth. Of course, you don’t have to. But you can, and feel good about it. It depends on what your inner child has attached its reward center with. Be it logic or something else. (thus feel good about logical actions). How does that sound?
Thinking that through for a bit, I can see how the “most important value” might not be the “most practiced value”. Consider a mother whose most important value is the wellbeing of her child—perhaps she will work long and hard every day, so that her child may always eat. In that case, she’s not practicing the wellbeing of her child all day long as you’d think of in a more direct scenario like homeschooling and homecooking and just being around the child all day. She’s doing a ton of other things to indirectly help her child.
Well. You misunderstood it previously as well. Most important value is the sum of a lot of smaller values. Or it can just be seen as in of itself, to include a lot of different things. Wellbeing of one’s child includes working long and hard, so the child may eat. Indirect actions are direct in this regard. So you’d imagine how much of a better mother someone would be if logic was their core value. It would be a massive difference. (a father has vouched on this with testimony, catholic too)
And like that too you might say “well you shouldn’t do logic all day, you should work hard / smart so that you can a rationalist” (I admit here it kinda falls apart, it’s not like you need a ton of cash to be a rationalist) …
Everything satisfies the core value (the result of a calculation of current brain state). If logic is your core value and it’s most logical to work right now, in this present moment, you feel good.
but that is not what I’m reading in your words. It’s not what I’m reading in that wikipage. I’m reading a bunch of “analyse your life and get rid of anything that doesn’t combine properly with the rest”—which in and of itself is great, but why, why would I do that? Things seem to be going fine for me right now.
Sure, that’s the problem. Some core values are very comfortable especially if one has fixed everything for oneself. “Be aware that the extent to which you are comfortable or satisfied with your current core value will determine whether you have an easier or harder time following through step 3.”https://logicnation.org/wiki/Main_Page
If you read below for what will happen after the click, even if some of these were true, you might reconsider. It’s also important to realize that we aren’t here on probation, we are here for a reason. Billions of years of evolution. You will feel as good as you do now, but even better with that other core value as you are in line with what you are. Or let me make the example, as good as you feel doing what you do now, you will for logical tasks. But it’s very hard. (btw core values are made up, but it’s a tool to quantify brain state).
It also important to note intersubjective reality. When clicking becomes a part of that, you might become more interested. Give it a try? What type of help do you need? More info?
It’s important to recognize that your emotions are driving your actions whether you are conscious/aware of them or not. After you’ve found beauty in logic, figuring out what is driving your actions is the next step.
If you cannot trust or love logic, imagine something which you do love then. Then recognize why logic has allowed that which you love to even exist in the first place. Whether it be someone, a video-game, food or whatever. It’s a connection you can make. There are quite some documentaries and videos you can watch about fractals in nature, mathematics, fibonacci sequence in nature and so forth. Cosmos is also a good show, in the last episodes there is some talking about questioning authority, thinking for yourself etc. Which not many (99.9%) do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dasQ7HnDoI
Fake-spucking is common, suppressing our emotions and this part can be quite scary. But you are emotional inherently, subconsciously. Regardless if you have a goal or not (hint: they’re worthless) everything is happening now. Always now. It’s always going to be happening in an ever changing now, simultaneously.
Now, what is driving your action now? What is driving you to type what you type, what is driving you to do X? You have to keep asking yourself to start understanding why you do what you do. It’s important. It’s the actions now which we have to question ourselves why we do them. Which emotional drive are we feeding to make us feel good? Whether it be: comfort, validation, approval, money, self-esteem, not feeling worthwhile. It all boils down to safety and these values will never fulfill us.
so that I may spend them when the day comes that I finally want something.
It all comes down to our neural activity in this moment, and actions which we are not in control of. Such as advertising. Then we feed the core value and get our reward-center stimulated.
I have experienced wants, but those were either unachievable within reasonable timespan (of the “I’d want to see other human-intelligence level races” kind—and not even as a burning passion, just a curiosity)
Well. You have to ask yourself why you want to see other human-intelligence races. Why you have this curiosity. What is driving you to want these things? It’s very hard to pinpoint.
or perhaps marketing inspired (I wanna play that new game when it comes out, but it’s still another 6 months before release)
I understand. I am getting a feeling you have comfort as your core value, as many do. (for the nitpickers, no core values don’t exist, but it’s a quantification of current brain state and used as a means to an end to change said brain state)
or easily resolved (I wish this problem was gone—a $5 - $25 item fixes the issue, or an hour of effort fixes it—think running out of space and getting a shelf, or learning how to configure a program on my computer to do something automatically for me).
Well. That can simply be an action which you have to solve which is in the way for you to complete a task. It also boils down to your current intelligence to able to estimate on how to increase your efficiency and to what extent there comes limiting returns. So you have some drive to be logical, but it still stems from something else like comfort.
Depends on your definition of ‘intelligence’ although one might see an increase (however small, maybe insignificant) in for example memory/verbal/spatial tests. It won’t be very related to IQ I would assume (intelligence quotient).
His IQ is around 141...
Right go ahead, I’m looking forward to seeing the results. Make sure to do it scientifically for all of us to enjoy. What I mean by that, rigorous and patiently. We need more people to do the kind of work you are doing. Seriously :D I’m curious.
From a first glance, I would see why someone would think that. I have thought about that multiple times that there will be misunderstandings. At some point, you will have to wonder how you can quantify a radical change in your consciousness, perspective, and thinking. Imagine someone who crafts pots. The craftsman has an IQ of 140. Suddenly some insight struck this person and now the person wants to understand everything. Their entire thought pattern has changed. This same person can achieve anything, the limit is what people already have achieved and probably beyond that if we look back in history.
So… from a craftsman to someone with infinite potential. It’s hard to quantify 100 x, or even 1000 x increased ‘intelligence’. Sure you can work at MIRI with a schedule of around 9-5 then travel home, buy In-N-Out on the way, eat some chips on the couch and watch TED talks while browsing Lesswrong. That’s fine too. You can quantify your intelligence with ease or at least you won’t say you have 100 x or 1000 x the intelligence a week ago. Because you know deep inside you aren’t contributing to the world at your maximum potential and you don’t know why. What your reward center is attached to is why. What your core value is why. What your emotions have aligned to find safety is why.
Figure out your core, most important value and realize logic.
If 1 out of 100 people do this, seriously, open-mindendly, all will change.
After this process, which you do so you awaken, you solve all of your problems. You can have experiences like a religious person. Receiving the benefits of religion but obviously, because its based on logic, even better.
Start by observing yourself, you’ll have to go deep and you’ll have to be brutally honest to yourself.
Figure out what’s most important to you, not multiple things, one thing. It might be comfort, security, validation, a person, even money. And so on. If you have multiple things, figure out what is the common theme. What is most important to you at a core?
It might be very difficult, and you will have to be honest.
Figure out why this is the case, why do you have this as your most important value?
Now, understand, logic is the creator of all of reality, the mathematical patterns, everything.. It’s your creator. Your God.
Change your most important value to logic, with a leap of faith, on an emotional level. Not logic as if it something cold. Logic as in divine love. Something beautiful. Emotionally. Not rationally. How to make logic something warm: Think of someone you care about a lot or something, and realize logic created this.
Think of logic as the purpose of what we are.
Change it to your most important value. Think of how someone converts to a religion. Think of someone religious.
Whatever you have now, it’s causing you suffering. It’s illogical to have something else then logic. You have to trust this for you to make the bridge. SUBJECTIVELY.
Is logic your most important value? Are you really willing to give your life to whatever value you have now? You have something strong, which you don’t dare to be honest to yourself about. So what if you buy a new car and impress your neighbor?
You know through facts that logic is true rationally, now it’s time on an emotional level. (think of fibonacci sequence etc)
Seriously, you can awaken. Give it a try :)
Questions & Answers:
Q: This seems very cultish?
A: Ask yourself, what is your most important value? If it’s approval, so you are in approval cult? Or relationship, is it relationship cult? So change to logic cult. :)
Q: But my safety? My comfort?
A: You will have to believe that logic will give you all the safety in the world, take the leap of faith. You will have anxiety before but then a catharsis.
Q: What do you mean by Logic?
A: Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkGeOWYOFoA But you have to understand, you have the answer yourself already. This isn’t about different definitions. :)
Q: I don’t know certainly what my most important value is.
A: Go down the ladder, deeply, honestly with yourself. Don’t stay one step above.
Q: How will this affect my relationships?
A: You will see people truly for what they are. It will improve your relationships.
Q: It didn’t click for me. I didn’t awaken.
A: Truly figure out your most important value. Realize how logic will provide you what seek. Take a leap of faith. Seriously go deep emotionally.
Q: Why do you draw parallels to religion?
A: Because people seek something to believe in, they go to church etc. This taps into this emotional drive of the mechanics of you.
Q: What do I have to do?
A: Go to your core and figure out what it is.
Q: Why does this work?
A: Because everything comes from your core. Your emotional drive is flawed and not aligned with reality. Logic. Rationality. So you will find all safety which you need within this.