Be honest. Was your one-liner typed with the full understanding of his points on hypothermic vs. cryothermic phases? Or were you just participating in the Less Wrong zombie ritual of linking to other posts? Whatever the case, bring me the down votes on a silver platter :)
enoonsti
Did you check out Stasis Systems of Australia? They appear to be in the early stages of development, but it may be something worth keeping an eye on:
http://stasissystemsaustralia.com/
In the meantime, if you are truly interested in cryonics, then I recommend taking a more proactive approach (writing articles, joining/forming local groups, etc). Don’t simply treat it as a good for consumption. Alcor and CI are confronted with a logistical nightmare and so each of us really have to contribute more than just money.
On a related note, GiveWell appears to be removing Against Malaria Foundation as their top charity, making GiveDirectly their new top charity. Donating to GiveDirectly may help legitimize the idea of an unconditional basic income. I don’t think basic income is as important as mass cryonics, but I still defend it in my upcoming “cryonics and basic income for everyone” website. Here’s hoping I finish the website someday.
“As a survivor of a recent heart attack”
I know I am off topic, but I was not aware of this and just wanted to note that I’m glad you’re still around. Of course, I enjoy most of the commenters here.… but still.… (cue sentimental music and single tear drop)
:D
Not necessarily. That’s why I brought up the example of basic income serving as a permanent strike fund to help employees demand higher wages. Employers can respond by meeting their demands, and/or automating more quickly, etc. Then society can respond to increased automation by increasing the basic income. Or not. I won’t talk about society’s transition into a gift economy here because that would take too much space.
I know you’re trying to paint Basic Income as a subsidy to employers, but it’s really not like the Earned Income Tax Credit. At all. I’ll continue this in the Luke_A_Somers thread.
The Society for Cryobiology consists of only ~280 members (by contrast, the Society of Neuroscience has 40,000 members). Furthermore, those ~280 largely specialize in frogs, oocytes, etc.… but not in organ cryopreservation. For whatever it’s worth, focus only on organ cryopreservationists and you’ll find the percentage of cryonics supporters drastically increase.
I know you skimmed this article, but I encourage you to read it again. There you’ll find your answer to Greg Fahy. Also, Brian Wowk is an organ cryopreservationist who supports cryonics. Peter Mazur, one of the most prominent cryobiologists discussed in the previous link, recently referenced Wowk’s paper on the thermodynamic aspects of vitrification.
Thank you, Yvain. I quickly realized how dumb my question was, and so I appreciate that you took the time to make me feel better. Karma for you :)
Yes, the paper clip reference wasn’t the only point I was trying to make; it was just a (failed) cherry on top. I mainly took issue with being revived in the common dystopian vision: constant states of warfare, violence, and so on. It simply isn’t possible, given that you need to keep refilling dewars with LN2 and so much more; in other words, the chain of care would be disrupted, and you would be dead long before they found a way to resuscitate you.
And that leaves basically only a sudden “I Have No Mouth” scenario; i.e. one day it’s sunny, Alcor is fondly taking care of your dewar, and then BAM! you’ve been resuscitated by that A.I. I guess I just find it unlikely that such an A.I. will say: “I will find Yvain, resuscitate him, and torture him.” It just seems like a waste of energy.
This is precisely why I both love and hate Less Wrong.
The theoretical desirability and practicality of cryonics is what matters at this point. It’s what the real controversy is about.
Upvoted. But I’ll still talk about organizational matters below :)
The thing I like about Mike Darwin is that he offers technical criticisms of cryonics organizations without resorting to threats of strict regulation. Of course, I understand there are people who do not think highly of Darwin, and condescendingly claim we are being duped by this “dialysis technician” (who then conveniently leave out that he received additional training from Jerry Leaf). Perhaps those people should inform David Crippen MD that he has been duped by Mike. David is with the Department of Critical Care Medicine at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, and Mike must have lied about his credentials when submitting to his book “End-of-Life Communication in the ICU: A Global Perspective”
Mike also probably lied to get into this debate too: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414041/
;)
With that in mind, since I deeply care about useful external criticism (as opposed to mainstream medicine’s silent apathy… because they are still stuck at the starting line by thinking that immortality is some separate magical state of being...), I want Melody to continue with her more technical critiques. However, I do want her to drop her threats of strict regulation, unless she can find many people who have gone through all of the paperwork of signing up and suddenly proclaiming, “Oh my god. You mean to tell me that Atul Gawande is not going to be at my bedside?” I understand the need in politics to sometimes play hardball, but this is different.
I encourage Less Wrong users to look at the language being employed here. Dr. Wowk is saying things like “Mayo clinic” from a life-saving perspective. Melody is saying things like “last wishes,” and emphasizing licensed embalmers. I do not feel comfortable with such language being floated around regulation that its (potential) members don’t want. At all. If any Less Wrong users do want such regulation without even having the intent of utilizing cryonics, then.… well.… shoo, go away.
No Richie. We are not voting you down because you are too “firey” in the sense of misspelled anger. We are voting you down because you are too brilliant for us, and we want you to spend your time like every other tortured genius: in seclusion.
if you think it is morally preferable to redistribute wealth from the taxpayers to Walmart instead, support guaranteed basic income and/or other low-income workers benefits.
That’s incorrect. Basic income is provided to everyone, even to those who choose not to work. Perhaps you were thinking of the Earned Income Tax Credit, which is provided only to low-income workers.
I can’t find anything implying that GF endorses cryonics as currently practiced.
ಠ_ಠ
Be honest. Did you simply ctrl-F and search for his name in that article? If yes, then here is a paragraph you missed: “In 1981, an internationally renowned organ cryopreservation researcher was called into his supervisor’s office (the supervisor was also an Officer and Director of the Society) and threatened with dismissal if he continued not only his low profile association with cryonicists, but also his suspension membership. It was also pointed out to this researcher that if his association with or belief in cryonics in any way became public he would never again get grants from the NIH or other routine sources. This individual, who was already wearing his suspension bracelet on his ankle to avoid public comment, was thus faced with a terrible dilemma: a choice between his chance at continued life via cryonics, or his career.”
Assuming you won’t take the time to read that lengthy article, here is a shorter one. Look for the part about the prominent Southern California scientist recommending cryopreservation for someone severely afflicted with Alzheimer’s. Like the Cold War piece above, the Marcelon Johnson article is also written by Mike “Darwin.” If his nickname from his schoolmates irks you, then you’ll love this piece: Dr. Dave Crippen, Professor of Critical Care Medicine and Neurological Surgery at the UPMC Medical Center in Pittsburgh, compares Mike to—drum roll please—Richard Feynman. For the record, I disagree with that comparison and I think Mike disagrees too (・。・;)
Both of your “Reference?” inquiries were historically answered in the Cold War article above. Assuming you haven’t done this yet, google the words “organ cryopreservation” just for fun. Not only does Fahy’s name dominate the results, but you should also see a 1988 book by David Pegg, who was mentioned in the Cold War article. Of course, as I made clear to this Reddit user, simple googling can be misleading (I apologize to Less Wrong users for my snark at that link… I tend to get irritated by stubborn individuals...)
Well anyways, it’s impossible for me to know exactly how many organ cryopreservationists are currently in their labs—Elsevier searches do not inspire confidence—and their true views on cryonics. For example, here’s a recent article on porcine uterus cryopreservation. Who are these authors? Did they show up at the annual meeting of the Society for Cryobiology in June? And even if they did, would they admit to Ben they support cryonics in light of the Society’s strained history? Whatever the case, I always appreciated this article by Fahy, where he concludes: “Even after currently-possible manipulations of physics and biology have all been explored, nanotechnology will come into play, allowing someone to enter the field from a wholly new perspective and change the rules of the game in more radical ways than most cryobiologists living today can imagine.”
XD
I do disagree with the conclusion that, even if cryonics has a low probablity of success, we should do it. It is the sort of “Pascal’s mugging” argument that is not instrumentally rational.
I’m not going to argue the importance of cryonics in a comment section. I just want to focus on simpler corrections for now. Or in other words, please stop insinuating that no cryobiologists support cryonics.
- 30 Nov 2013 20:51 UTC; 1 point) 's comment on On Walmart, And Who Bears Responsibility For the Poor by (
Less Wrong needs a better Captcha.
I sympathize with this suggestion. But at the same time, I do enjoy learning new words.
I haven’t heard about Cryonics UK for a while. Are you part of their standby team?
As I was reading Frozen, I kept thinking: “You know what this book needs? A randomly inserted car chase.” Sure enough, OP delivered. Oh, and if I received incompetent death threats, I would have had them checked for fingerprints. But Larry didn’t have them checked. Because he probably printed them out himself.
tldr; I hope someday you get around to that tome.
Upvoted. Did you check out the analysis by Freitas as well? Here’s a link with some additional commentary by Dr. Wowk: http://www.imminst.org/forum/topic/45324-alcor-finances/
By the way, many of your posts are both enlightening and smile-inducing… and yet, I think I mocked you in the past (I think it was at Pharyngula). Since I suddenly feel guilty about this, I ask that you give me a downvote for atonement.
That was a point I was trying to make ;)
I should have ended off with (/sarcasm)
...only if the workers don’t mind lower wages (such as in a Silicon Valley startup). See, among many other benefits, basic income can serve as a permanent strike fund for those who are still employed. These employed strikers would not receive anything from your solution of “unemployed-only.” Furthermore, your targeted solution can be demonized as “lazy-only” and cut by politicians. Look at stigmatized food stamps today. Such drastic cuts are very unlikely with a non-stigmatizing basic income provided to everyone.