As a self-identified Alice, I felt very validated by this post, so thank you. It helps fill in my model of why I have often ended up in conflict in high-importance situations with people.
Something I’m missing here (not that I would’ve expected you to write it, just missing in the sense of “I wish I could have this”) is what the Alices can do. A large problem of being on the Alice side of things is that there is very little feedback on what effective behaviour is. As the post mentioned, the opposing party does sometimes change their mind, albeit often much later. I have often had conversations with people on a topic years after having an Alice-Bob-Charlie interaction with them where it transpired that I had changed their mind. Sometimes by planting a seed, sometimes they needed more time to think about it, sometimes they needed someone else to say the same thing in a different way after me.
So the Alice struggle becomes: if you give just a little pushback, it might be too little, and things might not change even though it is very important that they do. If you give too much pushback, the sense of hostility might prevent the opposing party from changing their mind, or the cost to the Alice might be too great. Because there is a very real possibility of having impact, it’s important to do something (at least to me). Especially if I am dependent on that person in some way, and I need a sign of them being able to take into account my concerns. Also, my ‘principled’ nature will have me up at night if I don’t do anything, so there’s also that cost.
Here are two examples of personal situations where I have experienced the Alice-Bob-Charlie dynamic as a self-proclaimed Alice:
I once had a psychiatrist at a specialised mental-health clinic who acted very unprofessionally in our appointments. Feeling uncomfortable, I asked for a new psychiatrist and brought up what had happened in the appointments with several different people at the clinic. I got responses like “It sounds like you felt uncomfortable” and “I’m sure it was not that bad”. I felt it was very important that it was clear what was going on. Partly for the person who would inevitably take the slot that was now opened up at my old psychiatrist, partly for myself because I had lost significant trust in the clinic. After a few months I tried again with a new person, explaining the issues and receiving much the same response. Upon more pushback, I heard: “well, I’m not supposed to share this, but she has actually been let go after we received more complaints.”
I once had major surgery, after which I quickly started getting major complications. I was pingponged between the operating clinic and urgent care, with neither party taking responsibility and the former saying it was probably just “stress” when I tried to push back (but was definitely stressed because no one was listening to me). l Upon a later appointment with the surgeon, I tried to explain what had gone wrong, and what was still wrong with my body. She said “that doesn’t happen as a result of surgery”. I kept pushing back and ended up getting very upset. I have requested my medical records. There is no record of any of the complications of my surgery. The only reference to them is that I got “very upset at the surgeon” during my appointment, but that my “partner stayed calm”. As a result of the complications of this surgery, I still have severe chronic pain that often prevents me from being able to walk.
I felt crazy in both of these situations and in many others. Could I have communicated things better so that I would have been taken more seriously? Probably. But no one is giving feedback. Aside from that, there is a classic conundrum that an Alice has to traverse: if you get upset, people often take you less seriously (“she’s just stressed”, “I can see you’re upset”); if you don’t show any emotion, people often don’t take you seriously at all (“I didn’t realise this mattered so much to you”, people being swayed more by emotions than by arguments).
I know that these are highly personal situations, whereas the author was potentially referring to more general “moral” discussions, but I think that life is often a blending of the two.
As a self-identified Alice, I felt very validated by this post, so thank you. It helps fill in my model of why I have often ended up in conflict in high-importance situations with people.
Something I’m missing here (not that I would’ve expected you to write it, just missing in the sense of “I wish I could have this”) is what the Alices can do. A large problem of being on the Alice side of things is that there is very little feedback on what effective behaviour is. As the post mentioned, the opposing party does sometimes change their mind, albeit often much later. I have often had conversations with people on a topic years after having an Alice-Bob-Charlie interaction with them where it transpired that I had changed their mind. Sometimes by planting a seed, sometimes they needed more time to think about it, sometimes they needed someone else to say the same thing in a different way after me.
So the Alice struggle becomes: if you give just a little pushback, it might be too little, and things might not change even though it is very important that they do. If you give too much pushback, the sense of hostility might prevent the opposing party from changing their mind, or the cost to the Alice might be too great. Because there is a very real possibility of having impact, it’s important to do something (at least to me). Especially if I am dependent on that person in some way, and I need a sign of them being able to take into account my concerns. Also, my ‘principled’ nature will have me up at night if I don’t do anything, so there’s also that cost.
Here are two examples of personal situations where I have experienced the Alice-Bob-Charlie dynamic as a self-proclaimed Alice:
I once had a psychiatrist at a specialised mental-health clinic who acted very unprofessionally in our appointments. Feeling uncomfortable, I asked for a new psychiatrist and brought up what had happened in the appointments with several different people at the clinic. I got responses like “It sounds like you felt uncomfortable” and “I’m sure it was not that bad”. I felt it was very important that it was clear what was going on. Partly for the person who would inevitably take the slot that was now opened up at my old psychiatrist, partly for myself because I had lost significant trust in the clinic. After a few months I tried again with a new person, explaining the issues and receiving much the same response. Upon more pushback, I heard: “well, I’m not supposed to share this, but she has actually been let go after we received more complaints.”
I once had major surgery, after which I quickly started getting major complications. I was pingponged between the operating clinic and urgent care, with neither party taking responsibility and the former saying it was probably just “stress” when I tried to push back (but was definitely stressed because no one was listening to me). l Upon a later appointment with the surgeon, I tried to explain what had gone wrong, and what was still wrong with my body. She said “that doesn’t happen as a result of surgery”. I kept pushing back and ended up getting very upset. I have requested my medical records. There is no record of any of the complications of my surgery. The only reference to them is that I got “very upset at the surgeon” during my appointment, but that my “partner stayed calm”. As a result of the complications of this surgery, I still have severe chronic pain that often prevents me from being able to walk.
I felt crazy in both of these situations and in many others. Could I have communicated things better so that I would have been taken more seriously? Probably. But no one is giving feedback. Aside from that, there is a classic conundrum that an Alice has to traverse: if you get upset, people often take you less seriously (“she’s just stressed”, “I can see you’re upset”); if you don’t show any emotion, people often don’t take you seriously at all (“I didn’t realise this mattered so much to you”, people being swayed more by emotions than by arguments).
I know that these are highly personal situations, whereas the author was potentially referring to more general “moral” discussions, but I think that life is often a blending of the two.