You seem to be saying that property, at least in land, derives from government. I’m saying no, not necessarily, and I have given you a concrete example. And frankly I think that most property derives from private, tacit, anarchic methods of enforcement, and that government, while sometimes a helpful agent, isn’t the prime mover.
I don’t understand your example. My view of property is force based, you own a land either because you can protect it by force or because someone who can i.e. the government allows you.
Thankfully force is not the only arbiter of human relationships. However its opposite, compassion or altruism does not seem to play much of a role in the idea of property. A third option is trade, cooperation for mutual gain, non-altruistic, and force plays a role in rare cases in punishing defectors but usually people don’t defect largely because they want to continue a beneficial trade and not because of that kind of fear.
Is your point that property can be trade-like? That it exists not only because either you or the government has enough guns to chase away trespassers, but also because a tit-for-tat trade-like “I won’t touch stuff you call yours if you promise the same” social agreement is seen as mutually beneficial, even without much of an enforcement?
Is your point that property can be trade-like? That it exists not only because either you or the government has enough guns to chase away trespassers, but also because a tit-for-tat trade-like “I won’t touch stuff you call yours if you promise the same” social agreement is seen as mutually beneficial, even without much of an enforcement?
Kinda. I would de-emphasise the “mutually beneficial” and “promise” bits and emphasise the notion of self-reinforcing equilibrium. After all, you do have to defend your property, because theft does exist, but you don’t have to defend it very much, at least in normal times, because Hobbes was wrong; we do not have a constant ‘Will to contend by Battle.’ Similarly, international relations are fundamentally anarchical, so most countries judge that they need armies, but that doesn’t mean that they are constantly on a war footing, nor that “there is no place for industry, .. culture of the earth,” etc.
Similarly, international relations are fundamentally anarchical
I would argue with that. There is policeman: the yanks. Pax Americana, used to be Pax Britannica pre-1914 or so, which was a similar policing role, just more polite perhaps. There is also a quasi-democratic state-like thingy, the UN. It was anarchic before. Roughly before the “Anglosphere” became dominant. 18th century, for example. But today? Putin thought it is anarchic then found not being allowed to trade with about 80% of the GDP of the planet is not such a good deal.
Wasn’t like the whole point of having the UN is to stop it from being anarchic?
My view of property is force based, you own a land either because you can protect it by force or because someone who can i.e. the government allows you.
How does that not apply to things other than land? You have your life because either you can protect it by force or because the government does so.
No, not only because of that. There is also a trade-like aspect. A mutual social agreement that if nobody tries to kill the other, and thus we do not have to waste our resources on maintaining an ability to protect it by force, then everybody benefits from it.
My point is that you sound like to me it is only the direct deterrent, the immediate cost of the attack matters, my point would be here more like the consideration “if I attack someone, I erode the rule, the social agreement against attacking, and make it likelier that others attack me”. And because it could be a tragedy of commons, one level higher there is the social precommitment to punish the attack because everybody is better off if such rules are enforced. It requires ability to punish, sure, which is force, but not a very impressive one, a mob with pitchforks will do in a pinch.
How does that not apply to almost everything? We have a mutual agreement not to take each other’s land.
(If your answer is that everyone has life and not everyone has land, then use another example that not everyone has, such as money, or legs. How does your characterization of land not apply to those? You only have money, or your legs because either you can protect them or because the government does.)
You’ve given me a concrete example of how, as soon as government stopped enforcing your property, it stopped being your property. What exactly did private, tacit, anarchic methods of enforcement avail you?
It stopped being my property, but it didn’t stop being anyone’s property. There’s nothing to say that private, tacit, anarchic methods of enforcement will give the same result as government enforcement.
You seem to be saying that property, at least in land, derives from government. I’m saying no, not necessarily, and I have given you a concrete example. And frankly I think that most property derives from private, tacit, anarchic methods of enforcement, and that government, while sometimes a helpful agent, isn’t the prime mover.
I don’t understand your example. My view of property is force based, you own a land either because you can protect it by force or because someone who can i.e. the government allows you.
Thankfully force is not the only arbiter of human relationships. However its opposite, compassion or altruism does not seem to play much of a role in the idea of property. A third option is trade, cooperation for mutual gain, non-altruistic, and force plays a role in rare cases in punishing defectors but usually people don’t defect largely because they want to continue a beneficial trade and not because of that kind of fear.
Is your point that property can be trade-like? That it exists not only because either you or the government has enough guns to chase away trespassers, but also because a tit-for-tat trade-like “I won’t touch stuff you call yours if you promise the same” social agreement is seen as mutually beneficial, even without much of an enforcement?
Kinda. I would de-emphasise the “mutually beneficial” and “promise” bits and emphasise the notion of self-reinforcing equilibrium. After all, you do have to defend your property, because theft does exist, but you don’t have to defend it very much, at least in normal times, because Hobbes was wrong; we do not have a constant ‘Will to contend by Battle.’ Similarly, international relations are fundamentally anarchical, so most countries judge that they need armies, but that doesn’t mean that they are constantly on a war footing, nor that “there is no place for industry, .. culture of the earth,” etc.
I would argue with that. There is policeman: the yanks. Pax Americana, used to be Pax Britannica pre-1914 or so, which was a similar policing role, just more polite perhaps. There is also a quasi-democratic state-like thingy, the UN. It was anarchic before. Roughly before the “Anglosphere” became dominant. 18th century, for example. But today? Putin thought it is anarchic then found not being allowed to trade with about 80% of the GDP of the planet is not such a good deal.
Wasn’t like the whole point of having the UN is to stop it from being anarchic?
How does that not apply to things other than land? You have your life because either you can protect it by force or because the government does so.
No, not only because of that. There is also a trade-like aspect. A mutual social agreement that if nobody tries to kill the other, and thus we do not have to waste our resources on maintaining an ability to protect it by force, then everybody benefits from it.
My point is that you sound like to me it is only the direct deterrent, the immediate cost of the attack matters, my point would be here more like the consideration “if I attack someone, I erode the rule, the social agreement against attacking, and make it likelier that others attack me”. And because it could be a tragedy of commons, one level higher there is the social precommitment to punish the attack because everybody is better off if such rules are enforced. It requires ability to punish, sure, which is force, but not a very impressive one, a mob with pitchforks will do in a pinch.
How does that not apply to almost everything? We have a mutual agreement not to take each other’s land.
(If your answer is that everyone has life and not everyone has land, then use another example that not everyone has, such as money, or legs. How does your characterization of land not apply to those? You only have money, or your legs because either you can protect them or because the government does.)
My point is that it does apply.
That would mean that your statements about owning land also apply to owning your legs.
Yes, that is the point!
You’ve given me a concrete example of how, as soon as government stopped enforcing your property, it stopped being your property. What exactly did private, tacit, anarchic methods of enforcement avail you?
It stopped being my property, but it didn’t stop being anyone’s property. There’s nothing to say that private, tacit, anarchic methods of enforcement will give the same result as government enforcement.