Failure mode I think I’ve noticed, including among rationalists (and certainly myself!): If someone in your in-group criticizes something about the group, then people often consider that critique to be reasonable. If someone outside the group levels the exact same criticism, then that feels like an attack on the group, and your tribal defensiveness kicks into gear, potentially making you more susceptible to confirmation / disconfirmation bias or the like. I’ve noticed myself and I’m pretty sure others in the rationalist community doing this, and even reacting in clearly different ways to the exact same critique when we hear it from an in-group member or someone outside the group.
Do you think this is correct or off the mark? Also, is there a name for this and have their been studies about it?
Different connotations? For example, if you say “looking at the results, most rationalists are actually not that smart”, as an inside criticism it seems to imply “therefore, we should try harder and do rationality more consistently, or admit our limitations and develop techniques that take them into account”, but as an outside criticism it seems to imply “therefore you smartasses should not be so dismissive of astrology and homeopathy, unlike you those guys make lots of money”.
It reminds me of “concern trolling”, whose bailey is “any criticism or suggestion made by outgroup”, but the motte is, if I understand it correctly, trying to convice the group to do something suboptimal / create discord in the group / waste group’s time by providing what seems to be a helpful advice / genuine question.
Like, after outside criticism, the usual following step is offering an advice how to fix the problem. “Despite all the talk about winning, most rationalists don’t seem to significantly win at life. As a rationalist, you should reject armchair reasoning in favor of empirical evidence. I know many people whose lives have dramatically improved after finding Jesus. You should try it, too...”
And sometimes the following step was not made yet, but you already expect it. Which could be a mistake. But often is not. It is easy to err in either direction.
Alternate framing: if you already know that criticisms coming from one’s outgroup are usually received poorly, then the fact that they are received better when coming from the ingroup is a hidden “success mode” that perhaps people could use to make criticisms go down easier somehow.
Do you have some examples? I’ve noticed that rationalists tend to ascribe good faith to outside criticisms too often, to the extent that obviously bad-faith criticisms are treated as invitations for discussions. For example, there was an article about SSC in the New Yorker that came out after Scott deleted SSC but before the NYT article. Many rationalists failed to recognize the New Yorker article as a hit piece which I believe it clearly was, even more clearly now that the NYT article has come out.
I am reluctant to mention specific examples, partly because maybe I’ve misunderstood and partly because I hate being at all confrontational. But regardless, I have definitely seen this outside the rationalist community, and I have definitely noticed myself doing this. Usually I only do it in my head though, where I feel upset when it’s coming from outside my group but if someone inside the group says it then I’ll mentally nod along.
Failure mode I think I’ve noticed, including among rationalists (and certainly myself!): If someone in your in-group criticizes something about the group, then people often consider that critique to be reasonable. If someone outside the group levels the exact same criticism, then that feels like an attack on the group, and your tribal defensiveness kicks into gear, potentially making you more susceptible to confirmation / disconfirmation bias or the like. I’ve noticed myself and I’m pretty sure others in the rationalist community doing this, and even reacting in clearly different ways to the exact same critique when we hear it from an in-group member or someone outside the group.
Do you think this is correct or off the mark? Also, is there a name for this and have their been studies about it?
Different connotations? For example, if you say “looking at the results, most rationalists are actually not that smart”, as an inside criticism it seems to imply “therefore, we should try harder and do rationality more consistently, or admit our limitations and develop techniques that take them into account”, but as an outside criticism it seems to imply “therefore you smartasses should not be so dismissive of astrology and homeopathy, unlike you those guys make lots of money”.
It reminds me of “concern trolling”, whose bailey is “any criticism or suggestion made by outgroup”, but the motte is, if I understand it correctly, trying to convice the group to do something suboptimal / create discord in the group / waste group’s time by providing what seems to be a helpful advice / genuine question.
Like, after outside criticism, the usual following step is offering an advice how to fix the problem. “Despite all the talk about winning, most rationalists don’t seem to significantly win at life. As a rationalist, you should reject armchair reasoning in favor of empirical evidence. I know many people whose lives have dramatically improved after finding Jesus. You should try it, too...”
And sometimes the following step was not made yet, but you already expect it. Which could be a mistake. But often is not. It is easy to err in either direction.
Yes, this sounds like a reasonable interpretation.
Alternate framing: if you already know that criticisms coming from one’s outgroup are usually received poorly, then the fact that they are received better when coming from the ingroup is a hidden “success mode” that perhaps people could use to make criticisms go down easier somehow.
Do you have some examples? I’ve noticed that rationalists tend to ascribe good faith to outside criticisms too often, to the extent that obviously bad-faith criticisms are treated as invitations for discussions. For example, there was an article about SSC in the New Yorker that came out after Scott deleted SSC but before the NYT article. Many rationalists failed to recognize the New Yorker article as a hit piece which I believe it clearly was, even more clearly now that the NYT article has come out.
I am reluctant to mention specific examples, partly because maybe I’ve misunderstood and partly because I hate being at all confrontational. But regardless, I have definitely seen this outside the rationalist community, and I have definitely noticed myself doing this. Usually I only do it in my head though, where I feel upset when it’s coming from outside my group but if someone inside the group says it then I’ll mentally nod along.