Also, I just thought of this, but how does light move through time if it’s going at the speed of light? That would give it a velocity of zero in the futureward direction (given the explanation you have linked to), which would be very peculiar.
That’s right. From the point of view of the photon it is created and destroyed in the same instant.
To add to that, it is a relatively common classroom experiment to show trails in gas left by muons from cosmic radiation. These muons are travelling at about 99.94% of the speed of light, which is quite fast but the distance from the upper atmosphere where they originate to the classroom is long enough that it takes the muon several of its half-lives to reach the clasroom—by our measurement of time, at least. We should expect them to have decayed before the reach the classroom, but they don’t!
By doing the same experiment at multiple elevations we can see that the rate of muon decay is much lower than non-relativistic theories would suggest. However, if time dilation due to their large speed is taken into account then we get that the muons ‘experience’ a much shorter trip from their point of view—sufficiently short that they don’t decay! That they have reached the classroom is evidence (given a bunch of other knowledge about decay and formation of muons) that is easily observed for time dilation.
Also! Time dilation is surprisingly easy to derive. I recommend that you attempt to derive it yourself if you haven’t already! I give you this starting point: A) The speed of light is constant and independent of observers B) A simple way to analyze time is to consider a very simple clock: two mirrors facing towards each other with a photon bouncing back and forth between the two. The cycles of the photon denotes the passage of time. C) What if the clock is moving? D) Draw a diagram
Okay, but if it’s not moving through time, it only exists in the point in time in which it was created, no? So it would only be present for one moment in time where it would move constantly until it’s destruction. We would therefore observe it as moving at infinite speed.
Remember the thing from the Reddit comment about everything always moving at the constant speed c. The photon has its velocity at a 90° angle from the time axis of space-time, but that’s still just a velocity of magnitude c. Can’t get infinite velocity because of the rule that you can’t change your time-space speed ever.
Things get a bit confusing here, since the photon is not moving through time at all in its own frame of reference, but in the frame of reference of an outside observer, it’s zipping around at speed c. Your intuition seems to be not including the bit about time working differently in different frames of reference.
Sorry if I’m being annoying, but the light is not moving through time. So it should not appear at different points in time. If I’m not moving forward, and you are, and you’re looking directly to your side, then you’ll only see me while I’m next to you. And if I start moving from side to side, then I won’t impact you unless you’re right next to me. Change “forward” with “futureward” and “side” to “space”, and you get my problem with light having zero futureward speed.
My big assumption here is that even though things appear to behave differently from different frames of reference, there is in fact an absolute truth, an absolute way things are behaving. I don’t think that’s wrong, but if it is, I’ve got a long way to go before understanding relativity.
[...] but the light is not moving through time. So it should not appear at different points in time [...]
Since it’s not moving through time, light moves only through space. It never appears at different points in time. You can “see” this quite easily if you notice that you can’t encounter the same photon twice, even if you would have something that could detect its passing without changing it, unless you alter its path with mirrors or curved space, because you’d need to go faster than light to catch up with it after it passes you the first time.
In fact, if memory serves, in relativity two events are defined to be instantaneous if they are connected by a photon. For example, if a photon from your watch hits your eye and tells you it’s exactly 5 PM, and another photon hits your eye at the same time and tells you an atom decayed, then technically the atom decayed at exactly 5 PM. That is, in relativity, events happen exactly when you see them. On the other hand, the fact that two events are simultaneous for me may or may not (and usually aren’t) simultaneous for someone else, hence the word relativity.
(Even if you curve the photon, that just means that you pass twice through the same point in time. Think about it, if the photon can leave you and go back, it means you can see your “past you”, photons reflected off of your body into space and then coming back. Say the “loop” is three light-hours long. Since you can see the watch of the past you show 1PM at the same time you see your watch show 4PM, you simply conclude that the two events are simultaneous, from your point of view.)
I think what’s confusing is that we’re very often told things like “that star is N light years away, so since we’re seeing it now turning into a supernova, it happened N years ago”. That’s not quite a meaningless claim, but “ago” and “away” don’t quite mean the same thing they mean in relativistic equations. In relativity terms, for me it happened in 2012 because the events “I notice that the calendar shows 2012” and “the star blew up” are simultaneous from my point of view.
I don’t have good offhand ideas how to unpack this further, sorry. I’d have to go learn Minkowski spacetime diagrams or something to have a proper idea how you get from timeward-perpendicular spaceward movement into the 45 degree light cone edge, and probably wouldn’t end up with a very comprehensible explanation.
That’s right. From the point of view of the photon it is created and destroyed in the same instant.
To add to that, it is a relatively common classroom experiment to show trails in gas left by muons from cosmic radiation. These muons are travelling at about 99.94% of the speed of light, which is quite fast but the distance from the upper atmosphere where they originate to the classroom is long enough that it takes the muon several of its half-lives to reach the clasroom—by our measurement of time, at least. We should expect them to have decayed before the reach the classroom, but they don’t!
By doing the same experiment at multiple elevations we can see that the rate of muon decay is much lower than non-relativistic theories would suggest. However, if time dilation due to their large speed is taken into account then we get that the muons ‘experience’ a much shorter trip from their point of view—sufficiently short that they don’t decay! That they have reached the classroom is evidence (given a bunch of other knowledge about decay and formation of muons) that is easily observed for time dilation.
Also! Time dilation is surprisingly easy to derive. I recommend that you attempt to derive it yourself if you haven’t already! I give you this starting point:
A) The speed of light is constant and independent of observers
B) A simple way to analyze time is to consider a very simple clock: two mirrors facing towards each other with a photon bouncing back and forth between the two. The cycles of the photon denotes the passage of time.
C) What if the clock is moving?
D) Draw a diagram
Okay, but if it’s not moving through time, it only exists in the point in time in which it was created, no? So it would only be present for one moment in time where it would move constantly until it’s destruction. We would therefore observe it as moving at infinite speed.
Remember the thing from the Reddit comment about everything always moving at the constant speed c. The photon has its velocity at a 90° angle from the time axis of space-time, but that’s still just a velocity of magnitude c. Can’t get infinite velocity because of the rule that you can’t change your time-space speed ever.
Things get a bit confusing here, since the photon is not moving through time at all in its own frame of reference, but in the frame of reference of an outside observer, it’s zipping around at speed c. Your intuition seems to be not including the bit about time working differently in different frames of reference.
Sorry if I’m being annoying, but the light is not moving through time. So it should not appear at different points in time. If I’m not moving forward, and you are, and you’re looking directly to your side, then you’ll only see me while I’m next to you. And if I start moving from side to side, then I won’t impact you unless you’re right next to me. Change “forward” with “futureward” and “side” to “space”, and you get my problem with light having zero futureward speed.
My big assumption here is that even though things appear to behave differently from different frames of reference, there is in fact an absolute truth, an absolute way things are behaving. I don’t think that’s wrong, but if it is, I’ve got a long way to go before understanding relativity.
Since it’s not moving through time, light moves only through space. It never appears at different points in time. You can “see” this quite easily if you notice that you can’t encounter the same photon twice, even if you would have something that could detect its passing without changing it, unless you alter its path with mirrors or curved space, because you’d need to go faster than light to catch up with it after it passes you the first time.
In fact, if memory serves, in relativity two events are defined to be instantaneous if they are connected by a photon. For example, if a photon from your watch hits your eye and tells you it’s exactly 5 PM, and another photon hits your eye at the same time and tells you an atom decayed, then technically the atom decayed at exactly 5 PM. That is, in relativity, events happen exactly when you see them. On the other hand, the fact that two events are simultaneous for me may or may not (and usually aren’t) simultaneous for someone else, hence the word relativity.
(Even if you curve the photon, that just means that you pass twice through the same point in time. Think about it, if the photon can leave you and go back, it means you can see your “past you”, photons reflected off of your body into space and then coming back. Say the “loop” is three light-hours long. Since you can see the watch of the past you show 1PM at the same time you see your watch show 4PM, you simply conclude that the two events are simultaneous, from your point of view.)
I think what’s confusing is that we’re very often told things like “that star is N light years away, so since we’re seeing it now turning into a supernova, it happened N years ago”. That’s not quite a meaningless claim, but “ago” and “away” don’t quite mean the same thing they mean in relativistic equations. In relativity terms, for me it happened in 2012 because the events “I notice that the calendar shows 2012” and “the star blew up” are simultaneous from my point of view.
I don’t have good offhand ideas how to unpack this further, sorry. I’d have to go learn Minkowski spacetime diagrams or something to have a proper idea how you get from timeward-perpendicular spaceward movement into the 45 degree light cone edge, and probably wouldn’t end up with a very comprehensible explanation.