That makes sense to me! Perhaps a good way to do it would be that there’s not systematic way to keep people out, but there are options for kicking people out if the group votes against them. That way it takes active effort to maintain exclusivity, as opposed to allowing people to do it by active default.
One other thought on it: since people NEED access to these groups to be entitled to their UBI benefits, everyone has be allowed in each one. That being said, ya, a child molester in a group with a bunch of parents might not be a good idea.
So the question becomes is it better to distribute the problem cases across society, where hopefully there is more pressure to improve and better role models, or stick them in a group with all the other worst people and let them be a cesspool of misery?
Church often becomes so important to many homeless people precisely because it’s one of the last communities willing to have them, even when they are rejected everywhere else by the rest of society. Although even here in our imaginary world with CUBI, churches will not cease to exist, they will just be better funded since most likely they will spring up around communities.
As for the group size thing: I had said 50 to 250 to be circling around Dunbar’s number, then as it’s get to it’s upper limit, it’s time to split the group in two. I imagine this will be often be a drama filled affair, but it seems like a good idea since it allows for successful groups to very naturally continue to grow (think of cell division). Both groups would start off with the same polices of the previous whole group, then they can continue to evolve on their own parallel branches.
By the way, I suspect that we are reinventing some “anarcho-something-ism” here...
Thinking about the people at the bottom is a difficult trade-off: it would be better if they didn’t stay abandoned, but for everyone else it is better to stay far away from them.
Traditional solution: ignore them, or kill them if they become annoying
Religious solution: promise Heaven to those who volunteer to spend time with them
Socialist solution: put them in a mental institution and don’t talk about the topic anymore
Woke solution: leave them on the streets, don’t talk about the topic and attack those who do
...sorry for politics, but I tried to list all the solutions I am aware of.
I was thinking more of rift on UBI, not a fundamental reordering of society. Iceland has a system where you can declare you’re religious instantiation and money goes to it there, people have used that to have more community funded even non religious groups.
So this would be a combo of UBI and Sóknargjald (“congregation fee”). The main addition here is to make it fully non-religious and cap it at a size where you can actually know everyone else involved.
As for the what to do with people at the bottom question: Houston has done a better job than most with it’s housing first policies. The best programs to me are ones that aim to really prevent people from become homeless in the first place, once you’re mind has been ruined by a couple years of living outside and drugs it’s seem almost impossible to functionally reintegrate people into society.
Even if homeless circles, clearly forming community’s and pooling resources does work. For a good example of this I think of Camp Resolution in Sacramento. This, of course, does come with problems, so I understand why cops choose to break up these encampments, but I think it does cause a real damage to communities they destroy. If they could somehow get enough money (say through a program like the one I’m proposing) to at least do group aparments or something like that, I think it would go someway to allowing the more functional homeless people to reintegrate into society. I’ve worked a decent amount with the homeless, and there are a group who are certainly beyond help, but there at also a lot of people who I think still could be real productive members of society.
So, when a community will reach 240, it will have an incentive to don’t grow to don’t have drama and decrease of efficiency because of economies of scale? How would you prevent it?
I probably should have made it clear: this is not a replacement of capitalism. As the title suggest, this is an alternative to UBI. I think thinking of better ways to do UBI becomes more and more important as AI gets better and better. Already, this would be more efficient along economies of scale line than traditional UBI since it goes from a single person, to a community.
As for getting up to the cap: here’s what I was thinking. Once you get to arround ~150 ish, so around Dunbar’s number, it’s time to starting splitting, the extra is just to make it so it’s less likely for you to hit any hard caps before you reach it.
As for incentivizing communities to not grow: that seems counter productive. If there’s some sort of organization that’s working really well and everyone want’s to join we want it to start replicating and this would be a good mechanism for that to happen. Out with the old, in with the new.
That makes sense to me! Perhaps a good way to do it would be that there’s not systematic way to keep people out, but there are options for kicking people out if the group votes against them. That way it takes active effort to maintain exclusivity, as opposed to allowing people to do it by active default.
One other thought on it: since people NEED access to these groups to be entitled to their UBI benefits, everyone has be allowed in each one. That being said, ya, a child molester in a group with a bunch of parents might not be a good idea.
So the question becomes is it better to distribute the problem cases across society, where hopefully there is more pressure to improve and better role models, or stick them in a group with all the other worst people and let them be a cesspool of misery?
Church often becomes so important to many homeless people precisely because it’s one of the last communities willing to have them, even when they are rejected everywhere else by the rest of society. Although even here in our imaginary world with CUBI, churches will not cease to exist, they will just be better funded since most likely they will spring up around communities.
As for the group size thing: I had said 50 to 250 to be circling around Dunbar’s number, then as it’s get to it’s upper limit, it’s time to split the group in two. I imagine this will be often be a drama filled affair, but it seems like a good idea since it allows for successful groups to very naturally continue to grow (think of cell division). Both groups would start off with the same polices of the previous whole group, then they can continue to evolve on their own parallel branches.
By the way, I suspect that we are reinventing some “anarcho-something-ism” here...
Thinking about the people at the bottom is a difficult trade-off: it would be better if they didn’t stay abandoned, but for everyone else it is better to stay far away from them.
Traditional solution: ignore them, or kill them if they become annoying
Religious solution: promise Heaven to those who volunteer to spend time with them
Socialist solution: put them in a mental institution and don’t talk about the topic anymore
Woke solution: leave them on the streets, don’t talk about the topic and attack those who do
...sorry for politics, but I tried to list all the solutions I am aware of.
I was thinking more of rift on UBI, not a fundamental reordering of society. Iceland has a system where you can declare you’re religious instantiation and money goes to it there, people have used that to have more community funded even non religious groups.
So this would be a combo of UBI and Sóknargjald (“congregation fee”). The main addition here is to make it fully non-religious and cap it at a size where you can actually know everyone else involved.
As for the what to do with people at the bottom question: Houston has done a better job than most with it’s housing first policies. The best programs to me are ones that aim to really prevent people from become homeless in the first place, once you’re mind has been ruined by a couple years of living outside and drugs it’s seem almost impossible to functionally reintegrate people into society.
Even if homeless circles, clearly forming community’s and pooling resources does work. For a good example of this I think of Camp Resolution in Sacramento. This, of course, does come with problems, so I understand why cops choose to break up these encampments, but I think it does cause a real damage to communities they destroy. If they could somehow get enough money (say through a program like the one I’m proposing) to at least do group aparments or something like that, I think it would go someway to allowing the more functional homeless people to reintegrate into society. I’ve worked a decent amount with the homeless, and there are a group who are certainly beyond help, but there at also a lot of people who I think still could be real productive members of society.
So, when a community will reach 240, it will have an incentive to don’t grow to don’t have drama and decrease of efficiency because of economies of scale? How would you prevent it?
I probably should have made it clear: this is not a replacement of capitalism. As the title suggest, this is an alternative to UBI. I think thinking of better ways to do UBI becomes more and more important as AI gets better and better. Already, this would be more efficient along economies of scale line than traditional UBI since it goes from a single person, to a community.
As for getting up to the cap: here’s what I was thinking. Once you get to arround ~150 ish, so around Dunbar’s number, it’s time to starting splitting, the extra is just to make it so it’s less likely for you to hit any hard caps before you reach it.
As for incentivizing communities to not grow: that seems counter productive. If there’s some sort of organization that’s working really well and everyone want’s to join we want it to start replicating and this would be a good mechanism for that to happen. Out with the old, in with the new.