I am not a parent, and probably shouldn’t be. While I think this is a sound argument, it may very well be a terrible thing to tell a child.
Alex has two friends: Barney and Colin. Barney almost always does the right thing. Colin does the right thing whenever it suits him, but when it doesn’t suit him, he does whatever he wants.
When Alex has to decide between sharing something with either Barney or Colin, he’ll pick Barney, because he can trust him more. If he has to choose someone to go on an awesome adventure with, he’ll pick Barney, because he can’t be sure Colin won’t do something selfish if they get into a sticky situation. When he talks to other people, he’ll tell them that Barney’s a great, amazing guy, but he won’t say the same thing about Colin, because if other people see Colin doing the wrong thing, they might think he is the sort of person who does the wrong thing.
Alex may like Colin, but he has respect for Barney. This makes Barney important in a way that Colin isn’t. People will go out of their way to help Barney in a way they won’t do for Colin.
As your parent, I will probably love and care for you more than anyone else in the world, but when you don’t do the right thing, even I lose respect for you. If other people see you not doing the right thing, they won’t respect you, and that will make your life a lot harder.
When writing this, it occurred to me that I have no idea how many of the concepts in it would carry over to an eight year old’s level of understanding. Would a 21st-century first-world child even have a sense of their life being made harder?
Thanks, it’s an interesting thought. Yes, I think a child may understand the difference between popularity and real respect, if examples in real life or fiction could be found.
How old are they? I’m not at all certain about this, but I think it’s not until around age 3-4 that children develop theory of mind and so you won’t have much luck explaining right and wrong in terms of other people’s feelings.
I don’t think that many small children talk about the right thing to do in this sense. More likely, what the kid means by ‘the right thing to do’ is ‘the right thing according to a value system which is not really my own, but which I won’t openly dispute because my parents and other people I value/fear seem to want me to agree with it’. Except they could not possibly articulate that because they don’t really have the concepts of ‘value system’ or ‘right thing to do’. Their concept of ‘the right thing to do’ is a model of another person’s values created without the meta level of understanding what a value system is or that there can be more than one value system.
In my experience, either children understand what “it’s the right thing to do” means and so will do what’s right, or parents say “You have to do what I say!”, or parents lie to their children / tell them religious stories.
In my experience, either children understand what “it’s the right thing to do” means and so will do what’s right, or parents say “You have to do what I say!”, or parents lie to their children / tell them religious stories.
Well, it appears the particular child does understand what it means, in the sense of the morality computation being internalized, so actions can reliably be classified as “right” or “wrong”. But unfortunately, “so will do what’s right” does not follow.
Obviously, I don’t want to simply demand obedience or lie. Emotional pressure works—me being disappointed, etc—but it doesn’t feel right to me, and so I’m not good at it.
A question for rationalist parents (and anyone else who has ideas): are there good child-accessible rational arguments for why do right?
Me: Please do X.
Child: No.
Me: You know it’s the right thing to do.
Child: Yes.
Me: Well?
Child: I don’t want to.
Me: ???
I am not a parent, and probably shouldn’t be. While I think this is a sound argument, it may very well be a terrible thing to tell a child.
When writing this, it occurred to me that I have no idea how many of the concepts in it would carry over to an eight year old’s level of understanding. Would a 21st-century first-world child even have a sense of their life being made harder?
Thanks, it’s an interesting thought. Yes, I think a child may understand the difference between popularity and real respect, if examples in real life or fiction could be found.
How old are they? I’m not at all certain about this, but I think it’s not until around age 3-4 that children develop theory of mind and so you won’t have much luck explaining right and wrong in terms of other people’s feelings.
Eight.
You could explain to them that it doesn’t make much sense to call it the right thing to do if they don’t want/value it.
I don’t think that many small children talk about the right thing to do in this sense. More likely, what the kid means by ‘the right thing to do’ is ‘the right thing according to a value system which is not really my own, but which I won’t openly dispute because my parents and other people I value/fear seem to want me to agree with it’. Except they could not possibly articulate that because they don’t really have the concepts of ‘value system’ or ‘right thing to do’. Their concept of ‘the right thing to do’ is a model of another person’s values created without the meta level of understanding what a value system is or that there can be more than one value system.
I hope you find a good answer for this one.
In my experience, either children understand what “it’s the right thing to do” means and so will do what’s right, or parents say “You have to do what I say!”, or parents lie to their children / tell them religious stories.
Usually all three.
Well, it appears the particular child does understand what it means, in the sense of the morality computation being internalized, so actions can reliably be classified as “right” or “wrong”. But unfortunately, “so will do what’s right” does not follow.
Obviously, I don’t want to simply demand obedience or lie. Emotional pressure works—me being disappointed, etc—but it doesn’t feel right to me, and so I’m not good at it.
Sorry, I was making Socrates’s mistake there, I think.