In point 4 you misuse the word pogrom, while deportation may include pogroms those aren’t a necessary feature. And even when violent they often in the long term solve many difficult problems and resolve sources of conflict, see the population exchange between Greece and Turkey.
5) The multi-ethnic state is broken up along ethnic lines
This can occur violently or relatively peacefully as in the dissolution of Czechoslovakia or the independence of Slovenia. Other times they are accompanied by violence see the independence of Ireland or Greece or some anti-colonial movements. This was the ideal in large part was behind the self-determination. See also self-determination.
6) The state is already practically mono-cultural, simply don’t allow immigration where the immigrants are unlikely to assimilate
Now depending on the features of the society option 6 might mean practically no immigration (Japan) or relatively high levels (19th century France or America for white immigrants) depending on various factors.
I could have included extermination, and I could have been accused of baising the issue even more
Extermination was indeed historically used by states (especially in newly conquered territories) but to me it seems to be a separate solution from deportation or expulsion. Sometimes however deportation was used as a cover for extermination.
That is the extreme of (2). Aparthied-era SA included “independent homelands”.
By formulating it as you did originally you imported negative connotations. By picking this particular example you again import negative connotations. Many of these are pretty reasonable. Independence imports positive connotations, many of these are pretty reasonable. But you seem to refuse to accept the latter. Why?
In any case I think there is a big difference between setting up say a Millet system or some other kind of separation in the same state and dissolving the state entirely and have each cultural community be sovereign.
I was assuming that it isnt. You cant’ solve the problem of de facto multi-ethnicity by wishing it had never happened.
Isn’t this a narrow perspective? Just because this isn’t a solution to existing multicultural societies like say the US it doesn’t mean it isn’t a viable solution for many other societies (such as say Japan or Finland).
I guess you are right but it is a solution to the “what to do about cultural diversity” question. And you should add a disclaimer that not all states are multicultural.
If you don’t have any asteroids crashing on your planet, there is nothing to do about it.
Sure, in effect, we’re not randomly throwing asteroid-cracking missiles out in empty, asteroid-less space.
We’re certainly preparing for it and putting in place pre-emptive countermeasures, though, AFAIK.
Japan and Finland have effective strategies for dealing with cultural diversity, namely: Pre-emptively apply social measures to prevent any cultural diversity from reaching critical mass where it starts having social weight.
Gosh. There’s a lot of people who know that DIversity is Bad (and not just that some specifics things that some ethinicities do that aren’t neecessarily opposed by some form of MC are bad).
Wow. I’d really love to see the chain of reasoning that went from “For dealing with cultural diversity, preventing it altogether is an effective strategy.” all the way to “Cultural diversity is morally wrong and should be prevented at all costs!”
Or were you just assuming that such were my beliefs because I was giving a counterargument to one of your soldiers?
Note: When I get strawmanned, ad-hominem’d or targeted with sarcasm and satire, I do get confrontational. The above tone is intentional, for once.
It’s the most effective strategy because it incurs the least cost for the most effect. It deals with it quite nicely, and there is very little social disturbance.
Whether I think it’s a bad thing, or need a strategy, is irrelevant. Japan has implemented such a strategy. I can’t speak for Finland’s current state because I’m very misinformed on that country, I’ve learned recently.
Indeed, you won’t come up with and implement such a strategy if you think the costs of cultural diversity will be greater than the opportunity costs of not having any + costs of preventing it. This doesn’t prevent anyone from noticing, naming, and perhaps even analyzing this strategy once it has already been used and shown to the world, even if we disagree with the reasons behind its implementation (or disagree on the specific meaning of “dealing with”—for them, not having any is just as much “dealt with” as for us a long-term, self-sustaining/reinforcing, mutually-beneficial ecosystem would be “dealing with” multiple cultures).
It’s the most effective strategy because it incurs the least cost for the most effect. It deals with it quite nicely, and there is very little social disturbance.
If “disturbance” (not “change” or “revitalsiation”) is a cost, and if homegeneity is a benefit...yes. If homegeneity
is bad, and revitalisation is needed, the opposite follows. You don’t have a neutral c/b analysis there, it is loaded.
You could do a polictically neutral analysis in terms of how man dollars or yen immigration brings in, but it is by no means guaranteed to come up with zero as the optimum figure.
In point 4 you misuse the word pogrom, while deportation may include pogroms those aren’t a necessary feature. And even when violent they often in the long term solve many difficult problems and resolve sources of conflict, see the population exchange between Greece and Turkey.
5) The multi-ethnic state is broken up along ethnic lines
This can occur violently or relatively peacefully as in the dissolution of Czechoslovakia or the independence of Slovenia. Other times they are accompanied by violence see the independence of Ireland or Greece or some anti-colonial movements. This was the ideal in large part was behind the self-determination. See also self-determination.
6) The state is already practically mono-cultural, simply don’t allow immigration where the immigrants are unlikely to assimilate
Now depending on the features of the society option 6 might mean practically no immigration (Japan) or relatively high levels (19th century France or America for white immigrants) depending on various factors.
I could have included extermination, and I could have been accused of baising the issue even more
That is the extreme of (2). Aparthied-era SA included “independent homelands”.
I was assuming that it isnt. You cant’ solve the problem of de facto multi-ethnicity by wishing it had never happened.
Extermination was indeed historically used by states (especially in newly conquered territories) but to me it seems to be a separate solution from deportation or expulsion. Sometimes however deportation was used as a cover for extermination.
By formulating it as you did originally you imported negative connotations. By picking this particular example you again import negative connotations. Many of these are pretty reasonable. Independence imports positive connotations, many of these are pretty reasonable. But you seem to refuse to accept the latter. Why?
In any case I think there is a big difference between setting up say a Millet system or some other kind of separation in the same state and dissolving the state entirely and have each cultural community be sovereign.
Isn’t this a narrow perspective? Just because this isn’t a solution to existing multicultural societies like say the US it doesn’t mean it isn’t a viable solution for many other societies (such as say Japan or Finland).
It isn’t a solution for the multi-ethnic societies of Finland and Japan because they are not particualrly multi-ethnic.
I guess you are right but it is a solution to the “what to do about cultural diversity” question. And you should add a disclaimer that not all states are multicultural.
If you don’t have cultural diversirsity, there is nothing to do about it. Do you tell insomniacs to “sleep on it, it always works for me”?
If you don’t have any asteroids crashing on your planet, there is nothing to do about it.
Sure, in effect, we’re not randomly throwing asteroid-cracking missiles out in empty, asteroid-less space.
We’re certainly preparing for it and putting in place pre-emptive countermeasures, though, AFAIK.
Japan and Finland have effective strategies for dealing with cultural diversity, namely: Pre-emptively apply social measures to prevent any cultural diversity from reaching critical mass where it starts having social weight.
Against something that is universally assumed to be a Bad Thing.
..and what kind of thing is that?
Gosh. There’s a lot of people who know that DIversity is Bad (and not just that some specifics things that some ethinicities do that aren’t neecessarily opposed by some form of MC are bad).
Wow. I’d really love to see the chain of reasoning that went from “For dealing with cultural diversity, preventing it altogether is an effective strategy.” all the way to “Cultural diversity is morally wrong and should be prevented at all costs!”
Or were you just assuming that such were my beliefs because I was giving a counterargument to one of your soldiers?
Note: When I get strawmanned, ad-hominem’d or targeted with sarcasm and satire, I do get confrontational. The above tone is intentional, for once.
If you don’t think it is a bad thing, why do you need a strategy to prevent it?
It’s the most effective strategy because it incurs the least cost for the most effect. It deals with it quite nicely, and there is very little social disturbance.
Whether I think it’s a bad thing, or need a strategy, is irrelevant. Japan has implemented such a strategy. I can’t speak for Finland’s current state because I’m very misinformed on that country, I’ve learned recently.
Indeed, you won’t come up with and implement such a strategy if you think the costs of cultural diversity will be greater than the opportunity costs of not having any + costs of preventing it. This doesn’t prevent anyone from noticing, naming, and perhaps even analyzing this strategy once it has already been used and shown to the world, even if we disagree with the reasons behind its implementation (or disagree on the specific meaning of “dealing with”—for them, not having any is just as much “dealt with” as for us a long-term, self-sustaining/reinforcing, mutually-beneficial ecosystem would be “dealing with” multiple cultures).
If “disturbance” (not “change” or “revitalsiation”) is a cost, and if homegeneity is a benefit...yes. If homegeneity is bad, and revitalisation is needed, the opposite follows. You don’t have a neutral c/b analysis there, it is loaded.
You could do a polictically neutral analysis in terms of how man dollars or yen immigration brings in, but it is by no means guaranteed to come up with zero as the optimum figure.
If you don’t have the flu, being told to stay indoors to avoid it is useful.