The idea that you can reach 90+% confidence that a non-human animal is sentient, via evidence like ‘I heard its vocalizations and looked into its eyes and I just knew’, is objectively way, way, way, way, way, way crazier than Lemoine thinking he can reach 90+% confidence that LaMDA is sentient via his conversation.
I don’t agree with that. The animal shares an evolutionary history with us whereas a language model works in an alien way, and in particular, it wasn’t trained to have a self-model.
Edit: Nevermind, my reply mentions arguments other than “I looked into its eyes,” so probably your point is that if we forget everything else we know about animals, the “looking into the eyes” part is crazy. I agree with that.
Yeah, there might be other information that combines with ‘I looked into its eyes’ to yield high confidence in the animal case and not in the AI case.
I would also add, though, that ‘I share an evolutionary history with other organisms’ isn’t a strong enough consideration on its own to get to 90+%.
‘It wasn’t trained to have a self-model’ might be the kind of thing that can justifiably inspire extreme confidence, depending on why you think that’s important / what your model of sentience is, and how you know that model’s true.
I also disagree strongly with that paragraph, at least as it applies to higher mammals subject to consistent, objective and lengthy study. If I read it to include that context ( and perhaps I’m mistaken to do so), it appears to be dismissive (trolling even) of the conclusions of, at the very least, respected animal behaviour researchers such as Lorenz, Goodall and Fossey.
Instead of appealing to “empathy with an animal“ as a good guide, I would rather discuss body language. “Body language“ is called such for good reason. Before homo sapiens (or possibly precursor species) developed verbal communication, body language had evolved as a sophisticated communication mechanism. Even today between humans it remains a very important, if under-recognised, mode of communication (I recall attending a training course on giving presentations. It was claimed body language accounted for about 50% of the impact of the presentation, the facts presented on the slides only 15%). Body language is clearly identifiable in higher mammals. Even if it is not identical to ours in all, or even many, respects, our close evolutionary connection with higher mammals allows us, in my view, to be able to confidently translate their body language into a consistent picture of their mental state, actually pretty easily, without too much training. We have very similar ‘hardware’ to other higher mammals (including,- and this is important, in regard to regulating the strength and nature of mammalian emotional states- an endocrine system)) and this is key, at least in regard to correctly identifying equivalent mental states. Reading of body language seems to me to just as valid an informational exchange, as a verbal Turing Test carried out over a terminal, and our shared genetic heritage does allow a certain amount of anthropomorphic comparison that is not woo, if done with objectivity, IMO.
Equivalence of mental/ emotional states with ours, doesn’t necessarily lead to a strong inference that higher mammals are sentient, though it is probably good supporting evidence.
I would chose dogs rather than cats as, unlike Vanessa Kosoy, apparently, (see elsewhere in these threads) I’m a dog person. Domestic dogs are a bit of a special case because they have co-evolved with humans for 30,000-40,000 years. Dogs that were most able to make their needs plain to humans, likely prospered. This would, I think, naturally lead to an even greater convergence of the way the same human and dog mental state is displayed, for some important states-necessary-to-be-communicated-to-humans-for-dog-benefit, because that would naturally gives rise to the most error-free cross-species communication.
The mental states I would have no hesitancy in saying are experienced by myself and a domestic dog in a recognisably similar way (to >90% certainty) are fear, joy, pain, fight or flight response, jealousy/insecurity, impatience and contentment.
I’d be less certain, but certainly not dismissive, of anger, love, companionship ( at least as we understand it), and empathy. I also don’t have a very strong confidence they have a sense of self, though that is not necessary for my preferred model of sentience.
I have never seen my dog display anything I interpret as disgust, superiority, amusement or guilt.
But similarity of emotions and interpretation of body language are not the only signs I interpret as possibly indicating sentience. I also observe that a dog (mostly n=1) is capable of e.g.
Self initiated behaviour to improve its own state.
Clear and quite nuanced communication of needs ( despite limited ‘speech’)
Attention engagement to request a need be met ( a paw on the ankle, a bark of a particular tone and duration)
Deduction, at a distance, of likely behaviour of other individuals (mostly other dogs) and choosing a corresponding response
Avoidance of aggressive dogs. (Via cues not always obvious to myself)
Meet and smell with dogs of similar status
Recognition and high tolerance of puppies ( less so with adolescents)
Domineering behaviour against socially weak dogs.
On the basis of an accumulation of such observations (the significance of each of which may be well short of 90%) the model I have of a typical dog is that it has (to >99% likleyhood) some level of sentience, at least according to my model of sentience.
I have actually had a close encounter with a giant cuttlefish “where I looked into its eyes and thought I detected sentience” but here I‘m more aligned with Rob (to 90% confidence), and that this was a case of over-anthropomorphism—the genetic gap is probably too large (and it was a single short observation).
I would incidentally put a much lower probability than 10% that any statement of LaMDA that claims ownership of a human emotion, and claims it manifests just like that human emotion, means anything significant at all.
I don’t agree with that. The animal shares an evolutionary history with us whereas a language model works in an alien way, and in particular, it wasn’t trained to have a self-model.
Edit: Nevermind, my reply mentions arguments other than “I looked into its eyes,” so probably your point is that if we forget everything else we know about animals, the “looking into the eyes” part is crazy. I agree with that.
Yeah, there might be other information that combines with ‘I looked into its eyes’ to yield high confidence in the animal case and not in the AI case.
I would also add, though, that ‘I share an evolutionary history with other organisms’ isn’t a strong enough consideration on its own to get to 90+%.
‘It wasn’t trained to have a self-model’ might be the kind of thing that can justifiably inspire extreme confidence, depending on why you think that’s important / what your model of sentience is, and how you know that model’s true.
I also disagree strongly with that paragraph, at least as it applies to higher mammals subject to consistent, objective and lengthy study. If I read it to include that context ( and perhaps I’m mistaken to do so), it appears to be dismissive (trolling even) of the conclusions of, at the very least, respected animal behaviour researchers such as Lorenz, Goodall and Fossey.
Instead of appealing to “empathy with an animal“ as a good guide, I would rather discuss body language. “Body language“ is called such for good reason. Before homo sapiens (or possibly precursor species) developed verbal communication, body language had evolved as a sophisticated communication mechanism. Even today between humans it remains a very important, if under-recognised, mode of communication (I recall attending a training course on giving presentations. It was claimed body language accounted for about 50% of the impact of the presentation, the facts presented on the slides only 15%). Body language is clearly identifiable in higher mammals. Even if it is not identical to ours in all, or even many, respects, our close evolutionary connection with higher mammals allows us, in my view, to be able to confidently translate their body language into a consistent picture of their mental state, actually pretty easily, without too much training. We have very similar ‘hardware’ to other higher mammals (including,- and this is important, in regard to regulating the strength and nature of mammalian emotional states- an endocrine system)) and this is key, at least in regard to correctly identifying equivalent mental states. Reading of body language seems to me to just as valid an informational exchange, as a verbal Turing Test carried out over a terminal, and our shared genetic heritage does allow a certain amount of anthropomorphic comparison that is not woo, if done with objectivity, IMO.
Equivalence of mental/ emotional states with ours, doesn’t necessarily lead to a strong inference that higher mammals are sentient, though it is probably good supporting evidence.
I would chose dogs rather than cats as, unlike Vanessa Kosoy, apparently, (see elsewhere in these threads) I’m a dog person. Domestic dogs are a bit of a special case because they have co-evolved with humans for 30,000-40,000 years. Dogs that were most able to make their needs plain to humans, likely prospered. This would, I think, naturally lead to an even greater convergence of the way the same human and dog mental state is displayed, for some important states-necessary-to-be-communicated-to-humans-for-dog-benefit, because that would naturally gives rise to the most error-free cross-species communication.
The mental states I would have no hesitancy in saying are experienced by myself and a domestic dog in a recognisably similar way (to >90% certainty) are fear, joy, pain, fight or flight response, jealousy/insecurity, impatience and contentment.
I’d be less certain, but certainly not dismissive, of anger, love, companionship ( at least as we understand it), and empathy. I also don’t have a very strong confidence they have a sense of self, though that is not necessary for my preferred model of sentience.
I have never seen my dog display anything I interpret as disgust, superiority, amusement or guilt.
But similarity of emotions and interpretation of body language are not the only signs I interpret as possibly indicating sentience. I also observe that a dog (mostly n=1) is capable of e.g.
Self initiated behaviour to improve its own state.
Clear and quite nuanced communication of needs ( despite limited ‘speech’)
Attention engagement to request a need be met ( a paw on the ankle, a bark of a particular tone and duration)
Deduction, at a distance, of likely behaviour of other individuals (mostly other dogs) and choosing a corresponding response
Avoidance of aggressive dogs. (Via cues not always obvious to myself)
Meet and smell with dogs of similar status
Recognition and high tolerance of puppies ( less so with adolescents)
Domineering behaviour against socially weak dogs.
On the basis of an accumulation of such observations (the significance of each of which may be well short of 90%) the model I have of a typical dog is that it has (to >99% likleyhood) some level of sentience, at least according to my model of sentience.
I have actually had a close encounter with a giant cuttlefish “where I looked into its eyes and thought I detected sentience” but here I‘m more aligned with Rob (to 90% confidence), and that this was a case of over-anthropomorphism—the genetic gap is probably too large (and it was a single short observation).
I would incidentally put a much lower probability than 10% that any statement of LaMDA that claims ownership of a human emotion, and claims it manifests just like that human emotion, means anything significant at all.